Here's an idea that I will conclude (at the end of the post) isn't such a good idea. But it's worth thinking about.
As an extra line of links at the bottom of *every* page on *every* Wikipedia, have this:
Read and edit an article on this topic in: English -- Castellano -- Deutsch -- Francais -- German -- [etc.; the various languages we have]
One simpleminded suggestion would have it that at the bottom of http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Foo , these links would be to, for example, http://es.wikipedia.com/wiki/Foo and http://de.wikipedia.com/wiki/Foo , etc.
The problem of course is that "Foo" is not a word in Spanish. :-) Or if it is, it probably means "rutabaga" or is very rude. It requires very specialized knowledge, which cannot be automated, to know where those links should point.
So *can* we interlink similar pages between the various international Wikipedias, in order to foster cross-pollination? If so, how? Well, I have an idea that requires *minimal* programmer involvement (always a plus for overworked programmers!).
Describe the new page here.
<font size="-1">[Castellano] -- [Catalan] -- [Deutsch] -- [English] -- [Esperanto] -- [Français] -- [Hanyu] -- [Italiano] -- [Ivrit] -- [Nihongo] -- [Português] -- [Russkiy] -- [Svensk]</font>
Note, the names are given in their own languages, so the text can be used with all new language wikis; we'd could use this same text for all the wikis.
What I'd like to have is some commented-out instructions right before the list of languages (and *that* would have to be translated) but I'm not sure there is any way to write comments in wiki-markup! But, anyway, we'd have something like this:
<!-- Please don't remove this notice! If you identify an article on another Wikipedia on a topic that corresponds exactly to this article's topic, then, please, won't you add the URL of that other article, so that the language name below points to that article? -->
Even if this comment notice can be added, the one big problem with this sche me is that people just won't go to the trouble of putting in all the links. In fact, that's probably the case--enough that perhaps we shouldn't go to the trouble of doing this.
But maybe I'm not thinking of something here...maybe what's needed is a new text box with special bells and whistles, but that's not going to happen anytime soon, I'm sure.
Anyway, so my conclusion is that we shouldn't do anything along these lines yet (unless someone can think up something brilliant), but eventually, we might...
Well, one idea is just to make links on the [[Foo]] page point to a corresponding [[Foo]] page on the other wikis; then, on those other wikis, redirect [[Foo]] to the correct word in the other language. In THAT case, we should change the commented-out notice above.
Larry
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: wikipedia-l-admin@nupedia.com [mailto:wikipedia-l-admin@nupedia.com]Im Auftrag von Larry Sanger Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2001 11:08 An: Wikipedia-l@nupedia.com Betreff: [Wikipedia-l] How to help the international Wikipedias along .. As an extra line of links at the bottom of *every* page on *every* Wikipedia, have this:
Read and edit an article on this topic in: English -- Castellano -- Deutsch -- Francais -- German -- [etc.; the various languages we have]
The idea to make articles of other languages usable to one's own language is a very good idea. How to do this? You mentioned the problem of misinterpreted words according to the different meaning they might have in a different language and other things. I found that I switch very often to the international pages just to read new content. I wanted to have this at the same time as I browse through the German version.
(1) ?? All mixing into one version Problems: -Users cannot read the other language -Users misinterpret other content as to be corrected content and change it (in their own language) -Users feel uncomfortable with ever switching => Mixing without users affirmation on this is a bad idea => already cancelled. The separation we have is good working.
(2) ?? Some kind of linking (as you proposed) Problems: -Authors dont take the right linking WELL, that is a problem that is general to every item crosslang or not -Users dont understand that linking like in (1)
(3) ?? Some kind of automated linking Problems: -What kind of institution will organize it (queued to the international court of translation yesterday)? -That is not in the spirit of wikipedia..
Proposal from me:
(Calm down Larry.) Make a dictionary entry according to every item in wikipedia if an author likes to have one (!) on a subpage called WB (Wörterbuch in German, 'word book' (dictionary), 'wiki bridge' for Larry) which contains dictionary descriptions (spelling,sound,wordtype..) AND which contains translations of this word. The translations are (or can be) linked to the international version of wikipedia. The only problem arises that in case of switching -which should be indicated by appropriate means (flag, title)- the user has to know that he is in a different language version. But he or she should notify it because * the layout words is different. * he or she has chosen the translated word One should have then (and this is the only automation there is, I think) a BACK TO ONE'S OWN LANGUAGE (written in started language).
Example:
I read an article about 'car'. In German 'Auto'.
Since German wikipedia is always behind, the author of 'Auto' has inspected article 'car' in int. Version. He writes a subpage (he should write anyway) [Auto/WB]. Auto/WB contains dictionary info about the *word* 'Auto'. .......... 'Auto' wordtyp: Substantiv, Singular: Auto, Plural: Autos Synonym(e): Automobil, Kraftfahrzeug, PKW .. Translation English: [[car]] Svensk: .. .........
Now the procedure might go like this: Instead one writes: Translation English: [[english:car]]
I might then switch to international entry 'Car' which tells me something about Model T and alike. On top I read: 'ZURÜCK IN DIE DEUTSCHE VERSION'. After reading 'car' I switch back by click on it and get 'Auto/WB' again.
This would give a universal mechanism to relate to other sections or versions (like childens encyclopedia) and it would make sense in proposal I outlined above. Just to make the content of others useful. Having at the same time the reader made conscious about switching to another area.
Consense has to be made there about coding language sections. We could use the international language codes for that. So tcrosslang refs would be: [[us:car]] [[de:auto]] [[sv:??]]
Programmers have then to prepare a mechanism that stores the LAST PAGE in one's home language (if any) to make the 'BACK TO INITIAL VERSION' (?) Button work. [If user changes to a different section, source section prepares the message given to the destination section printed on top.]
Would do you think?
mit freundlichen Gruessen Stefan
StefanRybo in Wikipedia apologies for any language errors (please correct)
Stefan, I think the problem with your suggestion is that automated translation is a very inexact science at best (I have this direct from a linguist friend who does it for a living), and there would have to be a huge amount of user input/editing to make sure the links were correct.
Here's an idea. Instead of trying to link directly to the article in the other language, just link to a (to-be-created) *search page* on the other wiki. So we'd simply be creating new links below or above each article, like this:
Search for a different-language version of this article: [[Deutsch]] -- [[Francais]] -- [etc.]
and then we'd also have to create the search pages (which is mainly just a matter of copying code, I guess). We'd also have to translate the above-indented text into the other languages...
Here's yet another idea: don't do anything right now, but when the wikis are all built up as they should be within a few years, go in and *add* (by hand, or partially automated) links to the other-language versions of all pages. That would be a huge amount of work, but it's probably the only practical way to achieve a direct-link scheme.
Larry
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