No doubt Jim will be with you shortly.. but it doesnt seem like a good idea to give out anyones personal info to anyone in any circumstances - If its a legal matter, being investigated by legitimate officials, then there is a process for that...

As far as libel- slander, and credibility... since the party has made a good faith effort to change the info themselves, and that the user in question continues to assert the point - it becomes necessary to ascertian the truth of the point. Consider the Wikis potential ripples in a place like China, where, even if the point is true, the government there might not want it be known, - as in the case with Yahoo.

The material in point, seems to be with regard to the case of attribution of a quote, criticising Giorgio SILFER... is there a source for this? Can it be verified? If so, then what right does anyone have to deny it? If its inaccurate, then this constitues at best an error, and an apology would be in order - if its deliberate misinformation, then the user should be banned, or issue the said apology.

This is all just my opinion - from the POV of detachment from the potential liability of being sued by some jackass. But WikiP cant logically be held liable for issues of slander... or at least fear of a suit should not be a'feard. ( [Wikipedia Talk:Slander and Libel] ) -Stevertigo

==== (Crossposted: wikipedia-l, intlwiki-l, wikieo-l)

I received the follow message in my user's page today:

Estimata Sinjoro, Bonvolu komuniki la adresojn al kiuj sendi leteron per ordinara poŝto, por vi kaj por s-ro Brion Vibber, kiuj estas indikitaj kiel responsaj pri la redaktado de ĉi tiu enciklopedio. Bonvolu komuniki la adreson, sed ankau la kompletan nomon, de la persono kiu uzas la pseŭdonimon "Kriĉjo". Manke de respondo, mi sendigos per advokato registritan leteron je via atento ĉe la Centra Oficejo de UEA en Roterdamo. La afable petitajn informojn vi povas skribi ĉi-sube. Antaŭdankante pro la respondo.

Rough translation: Dear sir, please communicate to me the adress(es) of who to send a letter by mail for you and for Mr. Brion Vibber, who are indicated as the ones responsible for the editing of this encyclopedia. Please communicate the address, but also the complete name, of the person who uses the name, "Kricxjo". If you don't respond, I will send through my lawyer a registered letter to your attention at the central office of UEA in Rotterdam. You can answer the nicely requested information below. Thanks in advance for your response.

Now, I should clarify the situation. Kricxjo has added the following critique of Giorgio SILFER in his biography: "La politika agado de Giorgio Silfer ne estas universale aprezita. Dum la 90-aj jaroj, la verkisto Jorge CAMACHO mokis lin en la satira verko La Majstro kaj Martinelli (1993) kaj kritikis liajn ideojn en La liturgio de la foiro. Jouko LINDSTEDT, alia surskribinto de la Manifesto de Raŭmo, akuzas Silfer-on de proponi per la vorto "Raŭmiso" ideologion kiun li ne rekonas." (Translation: "The political action of Giorgio Silfer is not universally appreciated. In the 90's, the author Jorge Camacho mocked him in his satirical work, The Master and Martinelli and critiqued his ideas in The liturgy of the oven. Jouko Lindstedt, another writer of the Raum manifest, acuses Silfer of proposing an ideology to the word "Raumism" which he does not recognize.")

In response to this critique, an anonymous user put the following in the discussion page: "Ni estas studentoj de la kurso pri interlingvistiko kaj esperantologio en la universitato de Torino. La plenigo de kelkaj rubrikoj en Vikipedio estas parto de nia studa taskaro. Ni faras tion lau kriterioj de UTET-enciklopedio, kiuj supozeble estas sciencaj. Ni ne havas tempon por diskuti pri ili, kaj ne deziras polemiki kun aliaj. Se iu deziras bazi sin sur onidiroj kaj emociaj reagoj, tio estas unuavice problemo por tiu, kaj duavice por la fidindeco de la Vikipedio. (el Torino, 13.III.2003)"

Translation: "We are students of the course of interlinguistics and esperantology in the university of Torino. Working on the Wikipedia is part of our homework. We write them according to the criteria of the UTET encyclopedia, which supposably is scientific. We do not have time to discuss them, and do not wish to start a controversy. If someone wishes to base themselves on hearsay and emotional reactions, that is first a problem for them, and then a problem for the credibility of the Wikipedia."

Later the source was given for the critique and added back into the article (the anonymous person had deleted it). The anonymous author again makes legal threats claiming that Kricxjo is slandering his reputation. Brion then comments that threats from an anonymous author are not very convincing and then I received the above the threat on my personal page.

A few days ago, Kricxjo put the following comment on the discussion page of the anonymous user:

"Mi proponas ke la uzanto 130.192.202.25 estu forbarita. Li jam ŝanĝis artikolojn por forigi ajnan mencion de kritika flanko, kaj lastatempe laŭte kriis kontraŭ ajnaj kritikaj mencioj en artikoloj Perla MARTINELLI kaj Giorgio SILFER, kvankam neŭtrala biografio prezentas ĉiujn flankojn. Hodiaŭ, li eĉ minacis jurprocezon pro mia eta mencio de verko de Camacho La Majstro kaj Martinelli, kvankam publikaj reagoj kontraŭ iu homo - same kiel publikaj subtenoj - estas grava parto de biografio. Homoj kiuj intence kaj daŭre minacas la kunlaborecon kaj liberecon de Vikipedio devus esti forbaritaj."

Rough translation: "I propose that the user 130.192.202.25 be banned. He has already changed articles which delete any kind of mention of a critical side in the articles on Perla Martinelli and Giorgio Silfer, although a neutral biography should present every POV. Today, he even threated legal process because of a small mention of the work by Camacho, The Master and Martinelli, although public reactions against a person - the same as public support - are an important part of a biography. People who purposefully and continually threaten the cooperation and freedom of the Wikipedia must be banned."

So, I need legal advice. Jimbo, should I give Kricxjo's name and address to Silfer? Should I temporarily remove the critique from the biography until the legal problem is solved? Please reply ASAP... and CC: your reply to my personal address as well, msochuck@yahoo.com.

Thank you, Chuck Smith

===== Learn Esperanto! - http://www.lernu.net/ Enciklopedio: http://eo.wikipedia.org/

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On Sat, 2003-03-15 at 14:09, Chuck Smith wrote:

(Crossposted: wikipedia-l, intlwiki-l, wikieo-l)

I received the follow message in my user's page today:

(To clarify, said message was signed Giorgio Silfer, the person whose biography page is in dispute.)

Jen mia respondo:

Estimata d-ro Silfer:

Nia politiko de privateco postulas, ke mi kiel serviloadministranto ne rajtas disdoni personajn informojn pri niaj vizitantoj (retposxtadreson -- se donita -- kaj laste uzatan IP-adreson) sen aux ties eksplicita permeso aux klara evidenco de friponado aux malbonintenco.

Kiel vi versxajne jam scias, [[Vikipedio]] estas kunverkata projekto; mi invitas vin provi afable intertrakti por krei artikolojn kiuj pli bone, klare, informplene, kaj neuxtrale traktas la disputatajn aferojn ol la nunaj.

Se vi ial bezonas ''mian'' posxtadreson, bonvolu retposxti al mi cxe brion@pobox.com kaj mi gxin volonte donos private.

-- Brion VIBBER (mi diras nur por mia parto, ne por tiu de Chuck)

rough translation:

Esteemed Dr. Silfer:

Our privacy policy requires that I, as system administrator, can't give out our visitors' personal information (e-mail address -- if given -- and last used IP address) without either that person's explicit permission or clear evidence of troublemaking or ill intent.

As you probably already know, Wikipedia is a collaborative project; I invite you to try to work together in good faith to create articles which treat the disputed subjects better, more clearly, more informatively, and more neutrally than the current ones.

If for some reason you need _my_ mailing address, please e-mail me at brion@pobox.com and I'll gladly give it.

-- Brion VIBBER (I speak only for myself, not for Chuck)

Would it be possible for the aggreived party to email me personally in English, so that I might possibly resolve the problem amicably and with benefits to all parties involved?

--Jimbo

On Sat, Mar 15, 2003 at 11:09:07PM +0100, Chuck Smith wrote:

Rough translation: "I propose that the user 130.192.202.25 be banned. He has already changed articles which delete any kind of mention of a critical side in the articles on Perla Martinelli and Giorgio Silfer, although a neutral biography should present every POV. Today, he even threated legal process because of a small mention of the work by Camacho, The Master and Martinelli, although public reactions against a person - the same as public support - are an important part of a biography. People who purposefully and continually threaten the cooperation and freedom of the Wikipedia must be banned."

So, I need legal advice. Jimbo, should I give Kricxjo's name and address to Silfer? Should I temporarily remove the critique from the biography until the legal problem is solved? Please reply ASAP... and CC: your reply to my personal address as well, msochuck@yahoo.com.

Just as I prophesied. As an outsider, all I can do now is say "I told you so." The Wikipedia has systemic flaws that leave it vulnerable to this sort of attack. For easier to call the messenger an "anti-Semite" than deal with ones own failings.

Jonathan