Sorry for not replying to Mark's emails, but I think that discussing politics and whether Romanian or French has a grammar closer to Latin is off-topic on this list. :-)
Node, please do not accuse people for sockpuppetry without any evidence: when Pavel was on #wikipedia, he had an IP address of a .md ISP and since Freenode does not allow proxies, he really must be in Moldova.
Also, we should not confuse this Romanian/Moldovan situation with other situations where it's the debate whether a dialect/close language should have a Wikipedia, like Scots/English or Serbian/Croat.
Nowadays, the dispute that "Moldovan" is different from "Romanian" is absurd: even Voronin, the Moldovan president said that they're the same language and just the name is different.
Sorry for not replying to Mark's emails, but I think that discussing politics and whether Romanian or French has a grammar closer to Latin is off-topic on this list. :-)
That was a sub-topic of an e-mail. When replying to e-mails, you are more than welcome to ignore topics you find irrelevant.
Node, please do not accuse people for sockpuppetry without any evidence: when Pavel was on #wikipedia, he had an IP address of a .md ISP and since Freenode does not allow proxies, he really must be in Moldova.
Still, do you have evidence that any of the other so-called "Moldovans" are real people, in Moldova?
Also, we should not confuse this Romanian/Moldovan situation with other situations where it's the debate whether a dialect/close language should have a Wikipedia, like Scots/English or Serbian/Croat.
Nowadays, the dispute that "Moldovan" is different from "Romanian" is absurd: even Voronin, the Moldovan president said that they're the same language and just the name is different.
That's not really the issue here. What is the issue, is that 36% of Moldovans (excluding residents of Transnistria) claim "Moldovan" as their native language; the official script in Transnistria is Cyrillic, the official language in Transnistria is Moldavian (they still call it that in English officially in Transnistria, I think), and many schoolchildren in Transnistria/PMR/Stinga Nistrului go to "Moldavian schools", where the teaching is in Moldovan Cyrillic, or "Russian/Moldavian bilingual schools", where teaching time is divided between Russian, and Moldovan Cyrillic.
Mark
You excel in hiding important issues under details. Fact is that Romanian/Moldovan is complex, and that you cannot write Moldovan correctly.
Concerning your claim that Moldovans are not Moldovans, it's pure FUD. If you want to continue in the same direction, please provide proof of your existence, and that you are not a KGB/FSB agent. :)
As concerns the "Moldovan" schools of Transnistria, you forgot to tell that Moldovans there are forced to go to these schools, and that their attempts to open latin-scripted schools were crushed by security forces.
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: > Sorry for not replying to Mark's emails, but I think that discussing
politics and whether Romanian or French has a grammar closer to Latin is off-topic on this list. :-)
That was a sub-topic of an e-mail. When replying to e-mails, you are more than welcome to ignore topics you find irrelevant.
Node, please do not accuse people for sockpuppetry without any evidence: when Pavel was on #wikipedia, he had an IP address of a .md ISP and since Freenode does not allow proxies, he really must be in Moldova.
Still, do you have evidence that any of the other so-called "Moldovans" are real people, in Moldova?
Also, we should not confuse this Romanian/Moldovan situation with other situations where it's the debate whether a dialect/close language should have a Wikipedia, like Scots/English or Serbian/Croat.
Nowadays, the dispute that "Moldovan" is different from "Romanian" is absurd: even Voronin, the Moldovan president said that they're the same language and just the name is different.
That's not really the issue here. What is the issue, is that 36% of Moldovans (excluding residents of Transnistria) claim "Moldovan" as their native language; the official script in Transnistria is Cyrillic, the official language in Transnistria is Moldavian (they still call it that in English officially in Transnistria, I think), and many schoolchildren in Transnistria/PMR/Stinga Nistrului go to "Moldavian schools", where the teaching is in Moldovan Cyrillic, or "Russian/Moldavian bilingual schools", where teaching time is divided between Russian, and Moldovan Cyrillic.
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You excel in hiding important issues under details. Fact is that Romanian/Moldovan is complex, and that you cannot write Moldovan correctly.
Whether or not the language(s) is/are complex is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Also, my abilities (or alleged lack thereof) aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
Concerning your claim that Moldovans are not Moldovans, it's pure FUD. If you want to continue in the same direction, please provide proof of your existence, and that you are not a KGB/FSB agent. :)
I never claimed that "Moldovans are not Moldovans". What I did claim is that those people who claim on Wikipedia to be Moldovans have not substantiated their identity in the least, with the exception of Pavel.
As concerns the "Moldovan" schools of Transnistria, you forgot to tell that Moldovans there are forced to go to these schools, and that their attempts to open latin-scripted schools were crushed by security forces.
No -- there are schools that teach in Latin. However, they are forced to operate as private schools and do not receive support from the state. There are two Latin-script highschools and a total of 8% of Transnistrian kids go to Latin-script schools. There are also 14 Moldavian schools (total), using Cyrillic, and 2 Moldavian-Russian bilingual schools.
The Romanian press was happy to report when schools were closed, on the front page, but when some were re-opened (as private institutions), it was much farther back.
Mark
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote: > Sorry for not replying to Mark's emails, but I think that discussing
politics and whether Romanian or French has a grammar closer to Latin is off-topic on this list. :-)
That was a sub-topic of an e-mail. When replying to e-mails, you are more than welcome to ignore topics you find irrelevant.
Node, please do not accuse people for sockpuppetry without any evidence: when Pavel was on #wikipedia, he had an IP address of a .md ISP and since Freenode does not allow proxies, he really must be in Moldova.
Still, do you have evidence that any of the other so-called "Moldovans" are real people, in Moldova?
Also, we should not confuse this Romanian/Moldovan situation with other situations where it's the debate whether a dialect/close language should have a Wikipedia, like Scots/English or Serbian/Croat.
Nowadays, the dispute that "Moldovan" is different from "Romanian" is absurd: even Voronin, the Moldovan president said that they're the same language and just the name is different.
That's not really the issue here. What is the issue, is that 36% of Moldovans (excluding residents of Transnistria) claim "Moldovan" as their native language; the official script in Transnistria is Cyrillic, the official language in Transnistria is Moldavian (they still call it that in English officially in Transnistria, I think), and many schoolchildren in Transnistria/PMR/Stinga Nistrului go to "Moldavian schools", where the teaching is in Moldovan Cyrillic, or "Russian/Moldavian bilingual schools", where teaching time is divided between Russian, and Moldovan Cyrillic.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Mark,
Whether or not you are fluent in Moldovan is extremely important here, because you are the unique contributor. You created mo.wiki, you copied (from ro.wiki) most articles, and you, alone, are fighting for it. Given that this wiki is by you and for you, it could be justified as a hobby. But there are two problems: you do not seem to learn Moldovan and you promote old stalinist linguistic policies that hurt people's feelings. It still is a mystery to me how an American came to profess such conservative communist linguistic policies.
And, BTW, you called me a liar earlier, but you somehow failed to mention a single Moldovan editor (i.e. one that claims to be Moldovan) that supports your views.
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:> You excel in hiding important issues under details. Fact is that Romanian/Moldovan is complex, and that you cannot write Moldovan correctly.
Whether or not the language(s) is/are complex is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Also, my abilities (or alleged lack thereof) aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
Concerning your claim that Moldovans are not Moldovans, it's pure FUD. If you want to continue in the same direction, please provide proof of your existence, and that you are not a KGB/FSB agent. :)
I never claimed that "Moldovans are not Moldovans". What I did claim is that those people who claim on Wikipedia to be Moldovans have not substantiated their identity in the least, with the exception of Pavel.
As concerns the "Moldovan" schools of Transnistria, you forgot to tell that Moldovans there are forced to go to these schools, and that their attempts to open latin-scripted schools were crushed by security forces.
No -- there are schools that teach in Latin. However, they are forced to operate as private schools and do not receive support from the state. There are two Latin-script highschools and a total of 8% of Transnistrian kids go to Latin-script schools. There are also 14 Moldavian schools (total), using Cyrillic, and 2 Moldavian-Russian bilingual schools.
The Romanian press was happy to report when schools were closed, on the front page, but when some were re-opened (as private institutions), it was much farther back.
Mark
Mark Williamson wrote: > Sorry for not replying to Mark's emails, but I think that discussing
politics and whether Romanian or French has a grammar closer to Latin is off-topic on this list. :-)
That was a sub-topic of an e-mail. When replying to e-mails, you are more than welcome to ignore topics you find irrelevant.
Node, please do not accuse people for sockpuppetry without any evidence: when Pavel was on #wikipedia, he had an IP address of a .md ISP and since Freenode does not allow proxies, he really must be in Moldova.
Still, do you have evidence that any of the other so-called "Moldovans" are real people, in Moldova?
Also, we should not confuse this Romanian/Moldovan situation with other situations where it's the debate whether a dialect/close language should have a Wikipedia, like Scots/English or Serbian/Croat.
Nowadays, the dispute that "Moldovan" is different from "Romanian" is absurd: even Voronin, the Moldovan president said that they're the same language and just the name is different.
That's not really the issue here. What is the issue, is that 36% of Moldovans (excluding residents of Transnistria) claim "Moldovan" as their native language; the official script in Transnistria is Cyrillic, the official language in Transnistria is Moldavian (they still call it that in English officially in Transnistria, I think), and many schoolchildren in Transnistria/PMR/Stinga Nistrului go to "Moldavian schools", where the teaching is in Moldovan Cyrillic, or "Russian/Moldavian bilingual schools", where teaching time is divided between Russian, and Moldovan Cyrillic.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Mark: have a break have a KitKat...
Serv
2006/3/7, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com:
Mark,
Whether or not you are fluent in Moldovan is extremely important here, because you are the unique contributor. You created mo.wiki, you copied (from ro.wiki) most articles, and you, alone, are fighting for it. Given that this wiki is by you and for you, it could be justified as a hobby. But there are two problems: you do not seem to learn Moldovan and you promote old stalinist linguistic policies that hurt people's feelings. It still is a mystery to me how an American came to profess such conservative communist linguistic policies.
And, BTW, you called me a liar earlier, but you somehow failed to mention a single Moldovan editor (i.e. one that claims to be Moldovan) that supports your views.
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:> You excel in hiding important issues under details. Fact is that Romanian/Moldovan is complex, and that you cannot write Moldovan correctly.
Whether or not the language(s) is/are complex is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Also, my abilities (or alleged lack thereof) aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
Concerning your claim that Moldovans are not Moldovans, it's pure FUD.
If you want to continue in the same direction, please provide proof of your existence, and that you are not a KGB/FSB agent. :)
I never claimed that "Moldovans are not Moldovans". What I did claim is that those people who claim on Wikipedia to be Moldovans have not substantiated their identity in the least, with the exception of Pavel.
As concerns the "Moldovan" schools of Transnistria, you forgot to tell
that Moldovans there are forced to go to these schools, and that their attempts to open latin-scripted schools were crushed by security forces.
No -- there are schools that teach in Latin. However, they are forced to operate as private schools and do not receive support from the state. There are two Latin-script highschools and a total of 8% of Transnistrian kids go to Latin-script schools. There are also 14 Moldavian schools (total), using Cyrillic, and 2 Moldavian-Russian bilingual schools.
The Romanian press was happy to report when schools were closed, on the front page, but when some were re-opened (as private institutions), it was much farther back.
Mark
Mark Williamson wrote: > Sorry for not replying to Mark's emails, but
I think that discussing
politics and whether Romanian or French has a grammar closer to Latin is off-topic on this list. :-)
That was a sub-topic of an e-mail. When replying to e-mails, you are more than welcome to ignore topics you find irrelevant.
Node, please do not accuse people for sockpuppetry without any evidence: when Pavel was on #wikipedia, he had an IP address of a .md ISP and since Freenode does not allow proxies, he really must be in Moldova.
Still, do you have evidence that any of the other so-called "Moldovans" are real people, in Moldova?
Also, we should not confuse this Romanian/Moldovan situation with other situations where it's the debate whether a dialect/close language should have a Wikipedia, like Scots/English or Serbian/Croat.
Nowadays, the dispute that "Moldovan" is different from "Romanian" is absurd: even Voronin, the Moldovan president said that they're the same language and just the name is different.
That's not really the issue here. What is the issue, is that 36% of Moldovans (excluding residents of Transnistria) claim "Moldovan" as their native language; the official script in Transnistria is Cyrillic, the official language in Transnistria is Moldavian (they still call it that in English officially in Transnistria, I think), and many schoolchildren in Transnistria/PMR/Stinga Nistrului go to "Moldavian schools", where the teaching is in Moldovan Cyrillic, or "Russian/Moldavian bilingual schools", where teaching time is divided between Russian, and Moldovan Cyrillic.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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First off, I noticed you totally dropped all of your FUD about how the evil Russians are forcing Transnistrian Moldavians to use Cyrillic. How come?
You also failed to comment on the fact that only 1 of the "Moldovan" voters has confirmed his identity in any way, shape, or form.
Now, I'll reply to your message.
On 07/03/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
Mark,
Whether or not you are fluent in Moldovan is extremely important here, because you are the unique contributor. You created mo.wiki,
That's a heaping pile of falsehoods. The majority of contributions are not by me, but by anonymous contributors (who may or may not be Moldovan), User:Russ, and User:Gabix.
I did not "create mo.wiki" -- I found it empty, and added content. It was "created" by a developer. Who originally requested it is completely unknown to me, although it would be interesting to find out who it was.
you copied (from ro.wiki) most articles, and you, alone, are fighting for it.
Again, not true. Various people defended it in the duration of the vote but you discounted their opinions because they weren't Moldovan, OR Romanian (but if they're Romanian, of course their opinions mattered suddenly).
Also, at various times, it has been defended by Moldovans of diverse backgrounds, including but not limited to Oleg Alexandrov (if I am correct, he believes that, while it does make sense to have Cyrillic content, due to the small contributor base and erratic nature of contributions it is destined to fail without greater participation; Oleg Alexandrov has said he is of entirely Moldovan/Romanian heritage), Dmitriid (Dmitriid's view seemed to be that while the Wikipedia may exist, it should make clear that Moldovan and Romanian are the same language, and also it should make clear that Cyrillic is not official in Moldova anymore and is not the primary script for either Romanian or Moldovan; he said he was ethnically Russian but born in Chisinau and went to a Turkish school where he learnt Romanian/Moldovan), Vertaler (he was quite excited about the existance of the project, but was ultimately disappointed because of the erratic nature of contributions and small contributor and article bases; he seems to have been ethnically Moldovan, but he was certainly fluent in the language), Ali Noali / Elnoel (he held the same opinion as Vertaler; he said he was from an affluent ethnically Moldovan family who his webpage suggests were disgusted at the developments after Moldovan independence and at the current state of the Moldovan political and economic scene, blaming it on the new government), and possibly others.
There are also the anonymous Moldovan contributors who wrote or corrected content in Cyrillic.
Given that this wiki is by you and for you, it could be justified as a hobby. But there are two problems: you do not seem to learn Moldovan
It is not "by me", and it is most certainly not _for_ me.
and you promote old stalinist linguistic policies that hurt people's feelings.
Stalinist linguistic policy would be to let mowiki fall into disrepair and encourage people to use the Russian WP instead. I have not done that.
And whose feelings have been hurt? Who have been most active in this conflict? Not the Moldovans, no. The Romanians. A few Moldovans said some stuff, yes, but the _most active_ people were all Romanians -- Ronline, you, Bogdan, Bonaparte, Danutz, Mihaitza, Duca, Goie.
And, BTW, you called me a liar earlier, but you somehow failed to mention a single Moldovan editor (i.e. one that claims to be Moldovan) that supports your views.
I already mentioned them, and you already complained about them. Some of them have few or no contributions, but then, the same is true of most of the "Moldovan Wikipedians" who voted on your side. How did I find their opinions? You were sarcastic before and mentioned something about psychic powers. That would be cool, but I'm not psychic, at least not that I know of. I e-mailed some of these people a while back to find out what they thought.
Mark
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