Aoineko blew it definitly today. He is insulting people and refusing to talk to them, under the motive the user is using the same nickname than another person.
Since he was totally refusing dialogue, I created two pages to promote discussion on the french wiki
The first one was to ask other opinions about usage of the nicknames (such as should someone be allowed to use the same nickname than another, should the usage of nicknamed to allowed at all)
The second page was about the usage of swear words and insults on the french wikipedia. I ask other people opinions about that.
These pages were very proper and general in their intention
---------------
My proposition was followed by the following points
1. Aoineko moved the above stated articles to stupid names, soclearly showing he was totally refusing dialogue. He wrote on these articles signing with my name as a nickname. I restored some of them
2. Second, my account was stolen again (I say again since it already happened on the 1rst of january as Brion would remember I guess). So any edits made under my name after 14h00 french hour on any wikipedia are not by me, but a vandal.
Here http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%E9dia:Cas_de_l%27utilisatio... you can see two edits were made by Anthere
None were me. This can be checked with the log I guess. I would like to know the ip under which these edits were made.
My edits were under the ip 81.49.198.47
I insist again that none of the others are by me.
I think this will clearly show the non reliability of the log in system.
I don't think it is necessary I change my password since it is obvious it does not prevent others to use my login name
3. For the above reason, I ask that please a study be made to see who is the author of the theft could be Aoineko.
4. For the above reasons also, (insults, abusive reversion, swear words, refuse to dialog), I hereby indicate I consider Aoineko should be given a break from sysophood to give him the time to recover. I think his behavior is right now being very detrimental of the project. Giving very poor view of the encyclopedia, driving editors away, and censuring those he does not agree with. On top of that, my own reputation will clearly suffer from that, as the one who stole my account is saying bad things.
I cannot even try to put that back, since others users will be confused between who is me and who is not me
Please
5. I also ask shelter from the english wikipedia.
At least , this is my email. Let's pray nobody steal it. Only words said here are mine
Anthere
--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
I'm still ok :o) Anthere defended someone who used someone else nickname to make multi no-npov modification on a article. So, for joke I created an account named "Anthère" (with accent). Now she seem to care about someone else nickname use ;o) I did no vandalisme with her nickname, just move articles about "nickname usage" and "vulgarity usage" in the right place (in french wikipedia: "wikipedia:Prise de descission, xxxx"). This accout password is "wikipedia" and you can delete it as you want.
Aoineko
----- Original Message ----- From: Anthere To: wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org ; wikifr-l@wikipedia.org Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] My identity is being used by another and Aoineko is totally out of his wits
Aoineko blew it definitly today. He is insulting people and refusing to talk to them, under the motive the user is using the same nickname than another person.
Since he was totally refusing dialogue, I created two pages to promote discussion on the french wiki
The first one was to ask other opinions about usage of the nicknames (such as should someone be allowed to use the same nickname than another, should the usage of nicknamed to allowed at all)
The second page was about the usage of swear words and insults on the french wikipedia. I ask other people opinions about that.
These pages were very proper and general in their intention
---------------
My proposition was followed by the following points
1. Aoineko moved the above stated articles to stupid names, soclearly showing he was totally refusing dialogue. He wrote on these articles signing with my name as a nickname. I restored some of them
2. Second, my account was stolen again (I say again since it already happened on the 1rst of january as Brion would remember I guess). So any edits made under my name after 14h00 french hour on any wikipedia are not by me, but a vandal.
Here http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%E9dia:Cas_de_l%27utilisatio... you can see two edits were made by Anthere
None were me. This can be checked with the log I guess. I would like to know the ip under which these edits were made.
My edits were under the ip 81.49.198.47
I insist again that none of the others are by me.
I think this will clearly show the non reliability of the log in system.
I don't think it is necessary I change my password since it is obvious it does not prevent others to use my login name
3. For the above reason, I ask that please a study be made to see who is the author of the theft could be Aoineko.
4. For the above reasons also, (insults, abusive reversion, swear words, refuse to dialog), I hereby indicate I consider Aoineko should be given a break from sysophood to give him the time to recover. I think his behavior is right now being very detrimental of the project. Giving very poor view of the encyclopedia, driving editors away, and censuring those he does not agree with. On top of that, my own reputation will clearly suffer from that, as the one who stole my account is saying bad things.
I cannot even try to put that back, since others users will be confused between who is me and who is not me
Please
5. I also ask shelter from the english wikipedia.
At least , this is my email. Let's pray nobody steal it. Only words said here are mine
Anthere
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
You are strongly not ok Aoineko.
You are insulting people. You are reverting articles just because of the author. You are not respecting the very concept of wikipedia because of your own bias. You are behaving very bad with users you don't agree with, refusing discussion and reverting without giving justification. When I make the effort to create pages to discuss these points, you move them under ridiculous names, you fuck (used on purpose as an exception) my identity, write insulting comments (toward you) pretending to be me. You are trying to convince everyone my input here is only to support fachistes, nazi and otherwise supposed weirdos (I repeat, there is nothing badly wrong about this Atyvement article).
And as many abusers, you don't even see what is wrong.
The history of several perfectly decent articles is now a mess, there is a place somewhere I (supposingly) say you are a "connard", and you think you are perfectly ok ???
That is ok to play a bit Aoineko, but when you say Atyvement has gone after a threshold, you might well do to consider yourself. You may play a bit with my identities, why not ? You can keep them if you want. If you consider it can give you fun. But, do not try write insults toward you to try to destroy the little respect others have for me. *This*, I think, is illegal.
The only good point I see with you is that in spite of insults, agressivity and bad plays, you do not abuse too much your sysop power. However, I consider you abuse your editor power. The power of working in harmony and with respect to others.
Guillaume Blanchard gblanchard@arcsy.co.jp wrote: I'm still ok :o) Anthere defended someone who used someone else nickname to make multi no-npov modification on a article. So, for joke I created an account named "Anth�re" (with accent). Now she seem to care about someone else nickname use ;o) I did no vandalisme with her nickname, just move articles about "nickname usage" and "vulgarity usage" in the right place (in french wikipedia: "wikipedia:Prise de descission, xxxx"). This accout password is "wikipedia" and you can delete it as you want.
Aoineko
----- Original Message ----- From: Anthere To: wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org ; wikifr-l@wikipedia.org Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: [Wikipedia-l] My identity is being used by another and Aoineko is totally out of his wits
Aoineko blew it definitly today. He is insulting people and refusing to talk to them, under the motive the user is using the same nickname than another person.
Since he was totally refusing dialogue, I created two pages to promote discussion on the french wiki
The first one was to ask other opinions about usage of the nicknames (such as should someone be allowed to use the same nickname than another, should the usage of nicknamed to allowed at all)
The second page was about the usage of swear words and insults on the french wikipedia. I ask other people opinions about that.
These pages were very proper and general in their intention
---------------
My proposition was followed by the following points
1. Aoineko moved the above stated articles to stupid names, soclearly showing he was totally refusing dialogue. He wrote on these articles signing with my name as a nickname. I restored some of them
2. Second, my account was stolen again (I say again since it already happened on the 1rst of january as Brion would remember I guess). So any edits made under my name after 14h00 french hour on any wikipedia are not by me, but a vandal.
Here http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%E9dia:Cas_de_l%27utilisatio... you can see two edits were made by Anthere
None were me. This can be checked with the log I guess. I would like to know the ip under which these edits were made.
My edits were under the ip 81.49.198.47
I insist again that none of the others are by me.
I think this will clearly show the non reliability of the log in system.
I don't think it is necessary I change my password since it is obvious it does not prevent others to use my login name
3. For the above reason, I ask that please a study be made to see who is the author of the theft could be Aoineko.
4. For the above reasons also, (insults, abusive reversion, swear words, refuse to dialog), I hereby indicate I consider Aoineko should be given a break from sysophood to give him the time to recover. I think his behavior is right now being very detrimental of the project. Giving very poor view of the encyclopedia, driving editors away, and censuring those he does not agree with. On top of that, my own reputation will clearly suffer from that, as the one who stole my account is saying bad things.
I cannot even try to put that back, since others users will be confused between who is me and who is not me
Please
5. I also ask shelter from the english wikipedia.
At least , this is my email. Let's pray nobody steal it. Only words said here are mine
Anthere
--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
Guillaume Blanchard gblanchard@arcsy.co.jp wrote:I'm still ok :o) Anthere defended someone who used someone else nickname to make multi no-npov modification on a article.
Ah yes. I defend the right to anyone to edit, including that specific editor. This said, I may defend his edits, but I have stated in the page I created on nicknames, I wanted the nickname system to be removed. But here you say I am supporting this system. I am not.
Either you are lying about my support to avoid facing the fact I support the article, not the author, or you are entirely confused between all the edits you made under Anth�re, Anth�re, Anth�re, Antherement and so on.
Which proves my point when I say people will also believe I called you a "connard" when I *never* did.
--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
Hi, I'm not sure is the right place to discuss, is it ? ;o) Don't you feel odd that 2 french speaker are speaking in english !? I never refuse discussion with you, and I only create the Anthère account. I suppose it is easy to prove Anthére, Anthêre and Antherement was created by differente users. Perhaps I'm not the only who wanted to make you a joke ;o) To be honest, I don't understand well what is your thought about nickname usage. Please explain you (in french) in this page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%E9dia:Prise_de_d%E9cision%2C_Usage_des_su....
Aoineko Ah yes. I defend the right to anyone to edit, including that specific editor. This said, I may defend his edits, but I have stated in the page I created on nicknames, I wanted the nickname system to be removed. But here you say I am supporting this system. I am not.
Either you are lying about my support to avoid facing the fact I support the article, not the author, or you are entirely confused between all the edits you made under Anthère, Anthére, Anthêre, Antherement and so on.
--- Guillaume Blanchard gblanchard@arcsy.co.jp wrote:
Hi, I'm not sure is the right place to discuss, is it ? ;o) Don't you feel odd that 2 french speaker are speaking in english !?
I am writing here, because I want to know how many people did Anth�re, Anth�re, Antherement, Anth�re, Anth�re and co
And this, a french sysop cannot know
I never refuse discussion with you, and I only create the Anth�re account.
Yes. I believe you; It was ok to create that account. But what is not ok is what you wrote under that account. This is a sample :
http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%E9dia:Cas_de_l%27utilisatio...
That is my point.
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I don't speak much French, so I am unqualified to judge the merits of the argument going on at the French wiki now. But let me offer an opinion that may help guide those who do understand:
In the American legal system (and probably others), you can win or lose a case on its merits, but you can also lose by not following the rules of the system. This is called "procedural default", and is necessary to keep the system working: if a party refuses to show up for court, or complains to the wrong court, or doesn't respond properly to the court's questions, etc., then the court will not waste its time digging further into the issues of the case--it will simply declare that the uncooperative party loses. If someone wants a dispute resolved, it falls upon him to ensure that he treats the resolution system seriously and follows the process, otherwise there's no point in having a system at all. In extreme cases, if a litigant actively interferes with or subverts the process itself, casuing the court to waste its time and money, the party can even be sanctioned or charged with contempt of court.
When Wikipedia admins are called upon to resolve disputes, they should have the same powers. If it's something like a dispute over naming or content, a user who ignores legitimate questions posed to him, argues in the wrong place, and so on, should not be surprized when a sysop rules that his opponent's argument wins simply because his opponent behaved in a more civilized, productive manner. Likewise, there are some offenses that are so egregious as to merit sanctions: editing other people's quotes to misrepresent their opinions (but not just spelling mistakes and such), deliberate deception or dishonesty of other kinds, like lying about what one has said previously, or about what someone else has said.
I don't put mere hot-headedness into any of those categories: people get excited and say nasty things, and I don't have a problem with that as long as they keep the system working. But when they actively work to defeat the system, they need to lose, or the system stops working.
So, those admins who want to take some responsibility for the foreign wikis, do it. Don't be afraid to tell an uncooperative user that he is losing precisely because he refuses to cooperate. Block users, temporarily or permanently if necessary, if they actively work to subvert the system. If you need more technical assistance to exercise those powers, ask for it. Take control. Do what's necessary. We'll probably support you unless a dozen reasonable-sounding users give us good reasons not to.
--- Lee Daniel Crocker lee@piclab.com wrote:
I don't speak much French, so I am unqualified to judge the merits of the argument going on at the French wiki now. But let me offer an opinion that may help guide those who do understand:
In the American legal system (and probably others), you can win or lose a case on its merits, but you can also lose by not following the rules of the system. This is called "procedural default", and is necessary to keep the system working: if a party refuses to show up for court, or complains to the wrong court, or doesn't respond properly to the court's questions, etc., then the court will not waste its time digging further into the issues of the case--it will simply declare that the uncooperative party loses. If someone wants a dispute resolved, it falls upon him to ensure that he treats the resolution system seriously and follows the process, otherwise there's no point in having a system at all. In extreme cases, if a litigant actively interferes with or subverts the process itself, casuing the court to waste its time and money, the party can even be sanctioned or charged with contempt of court.
When Wikipedia admins are called upon to resolve disputes, they should have the same powers. If it's something like a dispute over naming or content, a user who ignores legitimate questions posed to him, argues in the wrong place, and so on, should not be surprized when a sysop rules that his opponent's argument wins simply because his opponent behaved in a more civilized, productive manner. Likewise, there are some offenses that are so egregious as to merit sanctions: editing other people's quotes to misrepresent their opinions (but not just spelling mistakes and such), deliberate deception or dishonesty of other kinds, like lying about what one has said previously, or about what someone else has said.
I don't put mere hot-headedness into any of those categories: people get excited and say nasty things, and I don't have a problem with that as long as they keep the system working. But when they actively work to defeat the system, they need to lose, or the system stops working.
So, those admins who want to take some responsibility for the foreign wikis, do it. Don't be afraid to tell an uncooperative user that he is losing precisely because he refuses to cooperate. Block users, temporarily or permanently if necessary, if they actively work to subvert the system. If you need more technical assistance to exercise those powers, ask for it. Take control. Do what's necessary. We'll probably support you unless a dozen reasonable-sounding users give us good reasons not to.
I thank you for these very wise comments Lee.
Since I was apparently not clear yesterday, I would like to explain exactly the reason for my ire.
I have a problem with the very liberal use of swear words and argotic insults toward other editors in case of disagreement. Insults which are permanently inscribed in the discussion pages, visible in history and recent changes. I think that is very detrimental with the image of a serious and reliable encyclopedia. When I express my concern, Aoineko answers not using swear words and insults would be hypocrisy, so better speak plain. In spite of numerous comments I made about this, he goes on using these words with no consideration with my concern over these. I believe similar concerns were adressed on the english wiki with the change of TMC name. This is of course an issue of the french. For this reason, I started yesterday serious discussion meta page to try to find a consensus. Which resulted in vandalism toward me and my identity. Issue for which I asked help from the developpers who have access to the database.
I see none of my request have been answered, but that you proposed some french take care of the matter themselves. However, I know of no french I would trust enough to have direct access to the database. However I trust current developpers, in particular because they are out of the process (do you see what I mean ?). So there is a problem here.
To go back to the vandalism issue, I think it is likely to be a general concern, as it can occur on any wikipedia (in particular since user tables are separated). Which is also the reason why I raised to the point on the main list.
Let me state first that in case anybody, under any wikipedia, under any of the following user names
Anth�re Anth�re Anth�re Anth�re Antherement
doing any vandalism, porn image upload, use of swear words, insults to contributors, copyright infringment...
are not me Anthere You may report any bad action to me, and consider by default Aoineko is the author of it.
I would like also to add that in french Anthere is written Anth�re. Which is why I often sign Anth�re. However, my account is Anthere because my browser does not handle unicode, and I wanted my user name to be the same on any Wikipedia. For exemple, I can't have an accentuated letter account on metapedia or in wiktionary.
However, I often sign Anth�re since I consider this is the proper spelling of my name.
Now, there are 4 names spelled very similarly to mine, one of which I consider my real name, plus one clearly inspired. All these user names are signing using the same nickname than mine (Anthere without accent).
In short, the contributions made under these name are quite likely to appear to be mine (because of the very short similarity), and the comments made in talk page will be confused with mine as well.
The name Anth�re (with nick Anthere) made up by Aoineko wrote insults toward Aoineko himself (something like "Aoineko is a fucking asshole").
While I can consider ok that others are using user names very similar to mine, I think this was deliberate attempt to make other believe I (Anthere) said this about Aoineko. Hence, that is not simple fun, that is direct attack and attempt to twist other people perceptions.
I think that is wrong.
I wonder if Fred would appreciate if Tannin was creating an account [[User:Fred Ba�der]], using the nick Fred Bauder is using, and writing under this name "Tannin is a fucking asshole".
<aside comment>This is just an example of current events, I am totally sure Tannin would not do this, it is just that Ba�der seems to me a plausible german name</aside comment>
Deliberate deception could be the word I am looking for. Perhaps. But apparently, it does not deserve any sanction. Not even an apology from the real author. Not even check up that the different identities were done by one or by several people (in case developpers would not want to give ip, saying how many ips would have been nice).
Consequently, I will consider Aoineko is the author of the whole mess.
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If my understanding is correct, at least part of the recent conflict between Anthere and Guillaume has to do with two people using the same nickname. I will take the opportunity to reiterate my plea to get rid of the nickname feature altogether.
The main reason is that nicknames make discussions harder to follow, especially if people keep changing them or use ones with undisplayable symbols.
Since the initial user name is already completely self-chosen, I can't see any justification for an additional nickname layer.
If I remember correctly, we initially implemented nicknames to accomodate users with offensive user names. This issue is now moot, since by consensus offensive user names are not allowed anymore.
Axel
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(Axel Boldt axelboldt@yahoo.com):
If I remember correctly, we initially implemented nicknames to accomodate users with offensive user names. This issue is now moot, since by consensus offensive user names are not allowed anymore.
Actually, I implemented the feature just because I wanted it. I still think it's useful--I want my user page to be headed by a complete name, but using that long name in attributing comments seems like overkill. Plus, it gives people the ability to personalize a bit while not hiding behind a psudonym entirely.
Like many features of the software, I think this one just gives us a greater opportunity to judge the character of the user: if someone changes nicknames to deliberately obscure the attribution of comments, then we know how seriously to take those comments.
If users seriously abuse any feature of the software and disrupt our goals, we can consider taking action. But I don't see this particular feature as more abusable than any other.
On 5/16/03 4:29 PM, "Lee Daniel Crocker" lee@piclab.com wrote:
(Axel Boldt axelboldt@yahoo.com):
If I remember correctly, we initially implemented nicknames to accomodate users with offensive user names. This issue is now moot, since by consensus offensive user names are not allowed anymore.
Actually, I implemented the feature just because I wanted it. I still think it's useful--I want my user page to be headed by a complete name, but using that long name in attributing comments seems like overkill. Plus, it gives people the ability to personalize a bit while not hiding behind a psudonym entirely.
Like many features of the software, I think this one just gives us a greater opportunity to judge the character of the user: if someone changes nicknames to deliberately obscure the attribution of comments, then we know how seriously to take those comments.
If users seriously abuse any feature of the software and disrupt our goals, we can consider taking action. But I don't see this particular feature as more abusable than any other.
I'd say that people have been seriously abusing the nickname function. People really should not have nicknames that are significantly different from their usernames.
People should not use nicknames that closely resemble other people's usernames.
People should not use unpronounceable nicknames.
People should not use nicknames that are made up of non-alphabetical characters.
Etc.
The Cunctator wrote:
People should not use unpronounceable nicknames.
People should not use nicknames that are made up of non-alphabetical characters.
I don't see what's wrong with these. The Chinese nicknames were a problem, since some people couldn't view them. º¡º's username, however, is viewable by anybody that can use [[en:]]. Whenever I see "º¡º", I know exactly who it is.
That said, I see no real need to support nicknames. "º¡º", after all, is not a nickname.
-- Toby
(since my test worked I'm sending this again)
The Cunctator wrote:
I'd say that people have been seriously abusing the nickname function. People really should not have nicknames that are significantly different from their usernames.
People should not use nicknames that closely resemble other people's usernames.
People should not use unpronounceable nicknames.
People should not use nicknames that are made up of non-alphabetical characters.
Yup. In itself, the nickname function is fine. Lee can sign "LDC", Mav "Mav". Like many things, if it's used *responsibly* there isn't a problem.
Three options: 1. remove the function (ie, exercise "dev power" and remove it for all the well-behaved people) 2. allow sysops / devs to edit the nicknames of users who are abusing (sysop power) 3. suggest that *anyone* feel free to edit an instance of a signature that obscures the real user name, just by editing the wiki text. (people power)
I'd say go with 3.
tarquin wrote:
Three options:
- remove the function (ie, exercise "dev power" and remove it for all
the well-behaved people) 2. allow sysops / devs to edit the nicknames of users who are abusing (sysop power) 3. suggest that *anyone* feel free to edit an instance of a signature that obscures the real user name, just by editing the wiki text. (people power)
I'd say go with 3.
I support 2.
3 is in fact the status quo, but it contains a lot of potential for abuse.
Rc
Ray Saintonge wrote:
tarquin wrote:
Three options:
- remove the function (ie, exercise "dev power" and remove it for all
the well-behaved people) 2. allow sysops / devs to edit the nicknames of users who are abusing (sysop power) 3. suggest that *anyone* feel free to edit an instance of a signature that obscures the real user name, just by editing the wiki text. (people power)
I'd say go with 3.
I support 2. 3 is in fact the status quo, but it contains a lot of potential for abuse.
Sorry, but as I see it, nicknames are coded as [[Login|Nick]] if you use the sign functinality (~~~~). And e.g. Mozilla shows ''Login'' in this yellow floating popup. Where is the Problem?
If you don't sign properly, and write --FooBar that can't be prohibited. And ''official pages'' (SpecialPages etc.) should never use the nickname during display (exept Properties ;).
I personally don't need this feature, and I think it can be very confusing sometimes, but nothing of 1, 2, or 3 is needed, IMHO. If someone uses offending words (as nickname) thats another matter, and can solved in better ways.
As long as the Wikipedia shows the real names (during diffs etc.), it's very very annoying to look after some stupid nicks. And discussions if Foo can mixed up with Foò .. sorry, but someone who _can_ read is clearly in advance.
my 2 cents (EUR)
Thomas Corell wrote:
Sorry, but as I see it, nicknames are coded as [[Login|Nick]] if you use the sign functinality (~~~~). And e.g. Mozilla shows ''Login'' in this yellow floating popup. Where is the Problem?
The problem is that I don't want to have to play hover-mouse just to see a name. That's like needing to lift someone's hat to see their face.
I wish people applied a little consideration in these matters. The nickname feature was fine till some people abused it. The simplest way to prevent this is to apply a little community pressure (a la Meatball soft security). when you see:
[[Login|confusing nick]] change it to [[Login]]
--- tarquin tarquin@planetunreal.com wrote:
Thomas Corell wrote:
Sorry, but as I see it, nicknames are coded as
[[Login|Nick]] if you
use the sign functinality (~~~~). And e.g. Mozilla
shows ''Login'' in
this yellow floating popup. Where is the Problem?
The problem is that I don't want to have to play hover-mouse just to see a name. That's like needing to lift someone's hat to see their face.
I wish people applied a little consideration in these matters. The nickname feature was fine till some people abused it. The simplest way to prevent this is to apply a little community pressure (a la Meatball soft security). when you see:
[[Login|confusing nick]] change it to [[Login]]
So...you suggest that I change
[[Anth�re|Anthere]] by [[Anth�re|Anth�re]]
and the issue would be solved ?
Well...
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Anthere wrote:
So...you suggest that I change [[Anthère|Anthere]] by [[Anthère|Anthère]] and the issue would be solved ? Well...
Changing signatures is not the 'wikiwiki'-way, as far as I understood it. I think that, especially french useres, can distinguish between two words with different accents.
That using such a similar nickname to blame another one is not gentle, is the other side. But you can't blame this feature, which can be helpful for one or the other reason. You can only blame the user for his unprofessional comments or articles etc.
Anthere wrote:
So...you suggest that I change
[[Anthère|Anthere]] by [[Anthère|Anthère]]
and the issue would be solved ?
No, that is a different issue. I was talking about *nicknames*, not *usernames*
I propose you change [[Machinchose|Anthere]] to [[Machinchose]] qui me fait chier en faisant semblant d'etre moi
--- tarquin tarquin@planetunreal.com wrote:
Anthere wrote:
So...you suggest that I change
[[Anth�re|Anthere]] by [[Anth�re|Anth�re]]
and the issue would be solved ?
No, that is a different issue. I was talking about *nicknames*, not *usernames*
I propose you change [[Machinchose|Anthere]] to [[Machinchose]] qui me fait chier en faisant semblant d'etre moi
Sans le chier, �a me va :-)
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I propose you change [[Machinchose|Anthere]] to [[Machinchose]] qui me fait chier en faisant semblant d'etre moi
On s'arrete tous niveau cochonneries douteuses, sinon on va serieusement degeulasser la liste d'email.
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
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--- Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com wrote:
I propose you change [[Machinchose|Anthere]] to [[Machinchose]] qui me fait chier en faisant semblant d'etre moi
On s'arrete tous niveau cochonneries douteuses, sinon on va serieusement degeulasser la liste d'email.
Y a pas de souci. Probl�me r�solu. Maintenant, on �crit comme �a
I propose you change [[Machinchose|Anthere]] to [[Machinchose]] qui me fait <strike>chier</strike> en faisant semblant d'etre moi
Pour �a, il suffit d'ajouter tous les mots grossiers dans la page sp�ciale de recherche d'orthographe, et de tout barrer en s�rie. Pas mal non ?
:-)
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--- Anthere anthere6@yahoo.com wrote:
Pour �a, il suffit d'ajouter tous les mots grossiers dans la page sp�ciale de recherche d'orthographe, et de tout barrer en s�rie. Pas mal non ?
:-)
Je pense detecter une solution humoriste. Ineffective, pour sur...
===== Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com 818.943.1850 cell http://www.christophermahan.com/
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--- Christopher Mahan chris_mahan@yahoo.com wrote:
--- Anthere anthere6@yahoo.com wrote:
Pour �a, il suffit d'ajouter tous les mots
grossiers
dans la page sp�ciale de recherche d'orthographe,
et
de tout barrer en s�rie. Pas mal non ?
:-)
Je pense detecter une solution humoriste. Ineffective, pour sur...
Perhaps... One french editor made yesterday a search on "connard" and strike all instances of the word.
Another option would be to remove any comment containing swear words and insults, and to move them under one of these smelly black clouds. What do you think ?
when my kids swear, I 1)make as if I didnot understand what they said or 2)send them to their room
when I swear, the kids tell me I am a bad person.
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Tarquin wrote in part:
- suggest that *anyone* feel free to edit an instance of a signature
that obscures the real user name, just by editing the wiki text. (people power)
Although I've said that I see no need to support nicknames, I also see no need to go ahead and remove them since people like them. This is the correct, truly wiki solution -- we only need to achieve consensus that confusing nicks are not allowed (as Kibo would say), and people power can go into action fearlessly. I suspect that this consenus is here.
Anthère's problem is slightly more complicated, since she also needs to have [[Utilisateur:Anthère]] forbidden once she's created her own account [[Utilisateur:Anthere]]. It should be quite valid for a developer on [[fr:]] to change such a name.
-- Toby
--- Lee Daniel Crocker lee@piclab.com wrote:
I still think it's useful--I want my user page to be headed by a complete name, but using that long name in attributing comments seems like overkill. Plus, it gives people the ability to personalize a bit while not hiding behind a psudonym entirely.
Like many features of the software, I think this one just gives us a greater opportunity to judge the character of the user: if someone changes nicknames to deliberately obscure the attribution of comments, then we know how seriously to take those comments.
If users seriously abuse any feature of the software and disrupt our goals, we can consider taking action. But I don't see this particular feature as more abusable than any other.
Well, it clearly has been abused, though not in the way you suggest: I don't think people have used it to deliberately obscure attributions (except maybe in the recent case on the French Wikipedia). People have changed nicks around and have used nicks with non-printable characters however.
Even if used as intended (as an abbreviation of the overly long user name, I take it?) it causes more problems than it solves. New users do not know that "LDC" refers to the same person as "Lee Daniel Crocker" and cannot be expected to deduce it. After they follow a link to "LDC", they may realize it, but why should they have to memorize irrelevant facts like that for hundreds of contributors? This is an additional hurdle for newbies who already have enough on their plate when trying to penetrate the complex organism Wikipedia.
How is signing on a talk page with "Lee Daniel Crocker" any worse than signing with "LDC" and why do you call it "overkill"? It's not like you have to type it. Are we that short on bandwidth/disk space? :-)
Axel
P.S. What does the software do if somebody signs up with the username "LDC"?
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Axel-
Well, it clearly has been abused, though not in the way you suggest: I don't think people have used it to deliberately obscure attributions (except maybe in the recent case on the French Wikipedia). People have changed nicks around and have used nicks with non-printable characters however.
I agree with you on this. However, I fail to see how we can reach consensus here, since there are obviously quite a few people who enjoy using the feature, and in all fairness, they would have to be asked individually if they agree to it being disabled. Since you are categorically opposed to voting, I note with a wry smile that a decision in your favor will probably not be forthcoming ;). Of course you could still try to get Jimbo to declare a state of nickname emergency.
Regards,
Erik
erik_moeller@gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
I agree with you on this. However, I fail to see how we can reach consensus here, since there are obviously quite a few people who enjoy using the feature, and in all fairness, they would have to be asked individually if they agree to it being disabled.
Maybe, it's enough to disable this feature for new users and add a (polite) note to the configuration option asking users to stay away from it.
--- Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de wrote:
[nickname feature has been abused]
I agree with you on this. However, I fail to see how we can reach consensus here,
No problem: we simply do. Let me just work my magic here :-)
since there are obviously quite a few people who enjoy using the feature, and in all fairness, they would have to be asked individually if they agree to it being disabled.
Nobody has to be asked individually about anything. If you don't speak up in a debate, your opinion doesn't count.
Axel
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Axel-
Nobody has to be asked individually about anything. If you don't speak up in a debate, your opinion doesn't count.
Isn't it interesting that when there is a vote, people always try to get everyone's attention by putting a notice on talk pages, the Village Pump, mailing lists etc. (cf. the recent "years in titles" vote) -- and when there's a "consensus" discussion they always try to avoid drawing too much attention to it, knowing intuitively that the more people there are participating, the less likely the discussion will ever get anywhere?
There are people who deliberately use the nickname feature to display their name in the charset of their mother tongue, or for a number of personal reasons. These people obviously like the feature, and most of them are probably not on this list. Hiding this discussion from them and then suddenly disabling or changing the feature is exactly the kind of undemocratic back room decision that alienates users in communities. I for one intend to make users who change their nicknames aware of this discussion.
Regards,
Erik
On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 10:34:17AM -0700, Axel Boldt wrote:
[...]
New users do not know that "LDC" refers to the same person as "Lee Daniel Crocker" and cannot be expected to deduce it. After they follow a link to "LDC", they may realize it, but why should they have to memorize irrelevant facts like that for hundreds of contributors?
Do you memorize the realnames (and consider them relevant)? :)
I memorize 'ldc' easier than 'lee danier crocker' (and much easier not to misspell! :)). not that it mattered, since it's just a string associated with a virtual entity. I'll sign '--grin' no matter what my 'registration data' is, but it would make it naturally impossible to click on me and see my pages. (I'm far too lazy to sign [[Peter Gervai|grin]] all the time, you know.)
I'm not really sure about the accents problem, I mean, probably I just missed the document describing the OriginalWikipedia character encoding, which tells whether it's 8859-1, utf-8 or what. If it's latin1 then nicks should not contain non-latin1 accents, and problem solved. If it's utf-8... but don't try to tell me that. :)
Fighting abusive nicknames by making restrictions and rules won't work. If you disallow nickname "adolf hitler" then the guy going to sign up his realname as such. Nothing would change except the loss of flexibility. In the long run it's up to the people's (or the admins/sysops) power to regulate. IMHO.
How is signing on a talk page with "Lee Daniel Crocker" any worse than signing with "LDC" and why do you call it "overkill"?
People came from different environments. Some prefer nicknames for various reasons. Some of these reasons do not exist in your world. :-) (Some of these reasons in fact do not exist in any of the worlds, but anyway...)
grin
I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that every user must use their real name? If so, this has been hashed out over and over again and rejected as unworkable.
Zoe
--- Axel Boldt axelboldt@yahoo.com wrote:
If my understanding is correct, at least part of the recent conflict between Anthere and Guillaume has to do with two people using the same nickname. I will take the opportunity to reiterate my plea to get rid of the nickname feature altogether.
The main reason is that nicknames make discussions harder to follow, especially if people keep changing them or use ones with undisplayable symbols.
Since the initial user name is already completely self-chosen, I can't see any justification for an additional nickname layer.
If I remember correctly, we initially implemented nicknames to accomodate users with offensive user names. This issue is now moot, since by consensus offensive user names are not allowed anymore.
Axel
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--- Zoe zoecomnena@yahoo.com wrote:
I'm really not sure what you're saying. Are you saying that every user must use their real name?
I was not saying that (even though I could have said it, since I agree with it). I was saying that the nickname feature of the software should be scrapped. It allows to use a name different from the user name when signing comments on talk pages. The nickname can be specified on the user preferences page and can be changed at any time.
Axel
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Looking again, I must say the issue is probably not my name directly, but maybe rather usage of accents. I would like to know the ip or the user under all these names be looked at nevertheless. Under one of these names, it was written I said Aoineko was a "connard". I would never have said such a thing. I would also appreciate these user names to be permanently deleted from the database.
I would also appreciate that french speaking users give their opinion on these two pages, as regards usage of swear words and insults, and possible changes of policy or software concerning nicknames. If none of these pages are given more consideration than the insults and defacements put by Aoineko, I indicated I will consider stopping any activity on the french wiki, as it will be clear to me no discussion is possible if the only reaction to an issue are reversion and insults.
Anthere
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