From: "Timwi" timwi@gmx.net
Andre Engels wrote:
I find this a rather disappointing compromise.
I sure hope that it is temporary. If after a year the Klingon Wikipedia does turn out to be a real success, I'm pretty sure nobody will mind if we add inter-wiki links then. If by then the Klingon Wikipedia is quite obviously dead, nobody will mind getting rid of it again.
But the fact that inter-wiki links are disallowed does hinder progress in some manner to this Wikipedia language project. Imagine if we did that to say French.
The premise is that Klingon isn't worthy of having inter-wiki links just because it is a constructed language.
I'm sure that there are by now more people in the world that have heard of Klingon as a language, than of many minor natural languages. And even some major constructed languages, also.
I'm not a user of Klingon but I do support the right of any community using a standardized form of communication to be recognized and considered worthy of inclusion as a wikipedia language project.
To place restrictions on a certain language do to the bias and prejudice of some is unjust, it hinders the progress of the wiki in question and it gives it a mark of doom from the start.
Let's face it whether we may want it or not there are actually some folks out there who are quite into this language. It is by no means an easy language to learn. It is used in other projects like Google without bringing reproach to that website. For Wikipedia to make exclusions and restrictions seems highly unfair and biased.
Sincerely, Jay B. [[User:ILVI]]
Jay Bowks wrote:
I'm not a user of Klingon but I do support the right of any community using a standardized form of communication to be recognized and considered worthy of inclusion as a wikipedia language project.
Thanks for your support. Many many people, in fact a clear majority, support full rights for the Klingon Wikipedia. Unfortunately, it seems that this has no significance here. Klingon is being treated like cripple-crap simply because a very small, but very loud minority has some sort of quabbles with it. And because one of them has been given (and is apparently allowed to retain) the power to have everything their way, and then intimidate everyone who tries to undo it.
Timwi
Timwi-
Thanks for your support. Many many people, in fact a clear majority, support full rights for the Klingon Wikipedia. Unfortunately, it seems that this has no significance here. Klingon is being treated like cripple-crap simply because a very small, but very loud minority has some sort of quabbles with it. And because one of them has been given (and is apparently allowed to retain) the power to have everything their way, and then intimidate everyone who tries to undo it.
Interesting. Is this the way you respect a compromise which you yourself proposed?
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
Timwi-
Thanks for your support. Many many people, in fact a clear majority, support full rights for the Klingon Wikipedia. Unfortunately, it seems that this has no significance here. Klingon is being treated like cripple-crap simply because a very small, but very loud minority has some sort of quabbles with it. And because one of them has been given (and is apparently allowed to retain) the power to have everything their way, and then intimidate everyone who tries to undo it.
Interesting. Is this the way you respect a compromise which you yourself proposed?
I failed to make it clear enough that I expected the limitations imposed on tlh to also apply to tokipona. Now everyone things I wanted the Klingon Wikipedia, when in fact I only wanted equal rights.
And the only reason why we still don't have equal rights is because people like you insisted on opposing tlh, because you said conceited and respectless things like "If anyone puts it back up, I'll go in there and suspend it myself!", and because the prejudice against the more widely-condemned Klingon is being adhered to more than the much more reasonable opposition against the less widely-known Toki Pona.
Timwi
Timwi-
I failed to make it clear enough that I expected the limitations imposed on tlh to also apply to tokipona. Now everyone things I wanted the Klingon Wikipedia, when in fact I only wanted equal rights.
I strongly support eliminating interlanguage links to Toki Pona, which is a vanity language if there ever was one.
And the only reason why we still don't have equal rights is because people like you insisted on opposing tlh, because you said conceited and respectless things like "If anyone puts it back up, I'll go in there and suspend it myself!"
That is not an actual quote. What I said is:
"Tim Starling disabled the wiki on my request because it was not created in consensus. However, should the wiki be reinstated without due process, I will if necessary take it down myself."
Note the important words "without due process" and "if necessary" (interestingly, you also added an exclamation mark where there was none). You seem to be happy only if a developer does what you want, regardless of whether there is community consensus to do so. I'd say developer actions should reflect community consensus. Developers should not enforce any single point of view, unless it is Jimbo's (and that, too, may soon come to an end).
In effect this means - believe it or not - that I would, if necessary, *reinstate* the Klingon Wikipedia if it was taken down in violation of our compromise. Of course, my support for this compromise wanes the more you use phrases like "conceited and respectless", continue to campaign for restoring the interlanguage links, and misquote what I said. A certain degree of sincerity is required for a compromise to work.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
What I said is:
"Tim Starling disabled the wiki on my request because it was not created in consensus. However, should the wiki be reinstated without due process, I will if necessary take it down myself."
Note the important words "without due process" and "if necessary" (interestingly, you also added an exclamation mark where there was none). You seem to be happy only if a developer does what you want, regardless of whether there is community consensus to do so.
I would love to see your evidence for there being "community consensus" to take down the Klingon Wikipedia.
Of course, my support for this compromise wanes the more you use phrases like "conceited and respectless", [...]
I'm really really sorry about that one. I regretted having written that after I sent it. I got totally out of control there. I know this isn't a good excuse, but I want to apologise nevertheless.
I just can't describe how angry I was and still am about the favouritism Toki Pona is receiving. It is totally infuriating, seriously.
I don't think I have (or at least I never meant to) campaigned for removing Toki Pona inter-wiki links; I would prefer to allow Klingon ones. But if disallowing Klingon inter-wiki links is the only way to allow a dedicated community of people to contribute to a well-meant project in the Klingon language, then Toki Pona shouldn't have them either.
Timwi
Timwi wrote:
I just can't describe how angry I was and still am about the favouritism Toki Pona is receiving. It is totally infuriating, seriously.
It's not receiving any favoritism, it's just being utterly ignored. If I hadn't mentioned it was a conlang, nobody'd have noticed. Klingon is famous, and that makes people spend a lot of time and hot air talking about it when we've all got better things to do.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber wrote:
Timwi wrote:
I just can't describe how angry I was and still am about the favouritism Toki Pona is receiving. It is totally infuriating, seriously.
It's not receiving any favoritism, it's just being utterly ignored. If I hadn't mentioned it was a conlang, nobody'd have noticed. Klingon is famous, and that makes people spend a lot of time and hot air talking about it when we've all got better things to do.
Of course! Without actually calling the klingophiles trolls, the "Ignore the trolls" principle still applies. The Klingon language would be less successful if it were given full privileges so the everyone could then actively ignore it. :-)
Ec
Ray-
Of course! Without actually calling the klingophiles trolls, the "Ignore the trolls" principle still applies. The Klingon language would be less successful if it were given full privileges so the everyone could then actively ignore it. :-)
It's difficult to ignore Klingon when it is plastered over 50 Main Pages and added as interlanguage links to thousands of serious articles about human history, politics and religion. That was always my main concern and the compromise addresses this problem.
I agree with Timwi that Toki Pona should be treated the same, as should all other minor conlangs, but this has less priority for me because nobody knows those, and Toki Pona sounds like it's the name of some native tribe in Papua New Guinea. The potential effect on our reputation is diminished. Klingon, on the other hand, has been immortalized by The Simpsons and other mainstream comedies, not to mention Star Trek itself.
By the way, Klingon now has 5 articles, and guess what they're about? Fictional worlds and concepts from Star Trek. The word "Star Trek" appears in none of them, so I suspect they don't even establish that they are fictional. This is the kind of Pandora's Box we are opening here.
Regards,
Erik
To Erik Moeller & Brion Vibber...
Does Google look like an unserious project to you, just because it's available in Klingon? Do you *really* think users would go to the Wikipedia site, find all those useful information, get amazed by the amount of its wisdom and diversity... then find the Klingon link and leave the site immediately? I'm sure most people who aren't interested in Klingon, Star Trek or conlangs would see the link, think something like "Klingon? Oh, uhm, nice..." and forget about this part of the Wikipedia. I absolutely don't believe that a Klingon Wikipedia would scare off users or potential contributors, as you and some others seem to think. It's not that hard to draw a line between 'popular' conlangs and private ones, as we finally seemed to have agreed on (concerning the ISO/SIL standards).
Maybe my Google example wasn't representative, since Google's also available in numerous nonsense fun-langs. There won't be a Ikipedia-way or a w1k1p3d14 of course. I can't imagine that a Klingon one would have a negative influence. Maybe a slightly positive one as it will attract Trekkies, linguists and conlang fans.
No one would reject a site just because there is an ignorable option. Besides, the language link would read "tlhIngan Hol", which is rather hard to track back to the word "Klingon". Toki Pona links also read "Toki Pona" and not "that conlang with the 120 words, ya know".
(sorry for this long post, I can never keep myself shortwinded)
- André
Erik Moeller wrote:
Klingon, on the other hand, has been immortalized by The Simpsons and other mainstream comedies, not to mention Star Trek itself.
By the way, Klingon now has 5 articles, and guess what they're about? Fictional worlds and concepts from Star Trek. The word "Star Trek" appears in none of them, so I suspect they don't even establish that they are fictional.
I don't know how to say "Star Trek" in Klingon. I suppose that those who write articles in Klingon already know that it's fictional. Those of us who don't read Klingon won't seek such information from that source. Those who understand Klingon, and believe that it is real, have got more problems than we do. :-)
Ec
Erik Moeller wrote:
It's difficult to ignore Klingon when it is plastered over 50 Main Pages and added as interlanguage links to thousands of serious articles about human history, politics and religion. That was always my main concern and the compromise addresses this problem.
And how can KlingonWP not produce the same in the long run?
By the way, Klingon now has 5 articles, and guess what they're about? Fictional worlds and concepts from Star Trek. The word "Star Trek" appears in none of them, so I suspect they don't even establish that they are fictional. This is the kind of Pandora's Box we are opening here.
I'm afraid you are being very paranoid there.
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:41:33 +0200, Ralesk Ne'vennoyx ralesk@livejournal.com wrote:
By the way, Klingon now has 5 articles, and guess what they're about? Fictional worlds and concepts from Star Trek. The word "Star Trek" appears in none of them, so I suspect they don't even establish that they are fictional. This is the kind of Pandora's Box we are opening here.
I'm afraid you are being very paranoid there.
On the contrary- while I don't see it as Pandora's Box, it raises the question of whether the Klingon wikipedia would really fit the ideals of the Wikimedia foundation... If it's not a general-purpose encyclopedia, does it really belong as a Wikipedia? Wikipedia is not [[Memory Alpha]].
FF> Wikipedia is not [[Memory Alpha]].
That's true, yes. But MemoryAlpha is for Star Trek content only, besides, it's in English. A Klingon Wikipedia would include both Star Trek content and real-life things. The vocabulary is large enough to speak about various things... so it might start with a few ST-related entries but develop to a wider range of topics.
- André
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 15:38:18 +0200, André Müller andrew1985@gmx.de wrote:
FF> Wikipedia is not [[Memory Alpha]].
That's true, yes. But MemoryAlpha is for Star Trek content only, besides, it's in English. A Klingon Wikipedia would include both Star Trek content and real-life things.
In theory, yes. And in theory, theory is the same as practice, but in practice it is not. Personally, I have sincere doubts about the ability of a Klingon wikipedia to produce an encyclopedic work similar to that of the other wikipedias.
Brion Vibber wrote:
Timwi wrote:
I just can't describe how angry I was and still am about the favouritism Toki Pona is receiving. It is totally infuriating, seriously.
It's not receiving any favoritism, it's just being utterly ignored.
But that is exactly the favouritism I mean. :/
Timwi
P.S.: I knew Toki Pona was a conlang before its Wikipedia was created, but then again, I'm a geek.
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:49:04 -0700, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
Timwi wrote:
I just can't describe how angry I was and still am about the favouritism Toki Pona is receiving. It is totally infuriating, seriously.
It's not receiving any favoritism, it's just being utterly ignored.
and I utterly ignore all this talk of Klingon. Does that count for anything? :)
At 06:52 PM 6/8/2004 -0400, Fennec Foxen wrote:
On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 11:49:04 -0700, Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com wrote:
It's not receiving any favoritism, it's just being utterly ignored.
and I utterly ignore all this talk of Klingon. Does that count for anything? :)
I'm generally ignoring it too, but I also secretly look forward to seeing what an edit or flame war looks like in Klingon. :)
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