Ronline wrote:
I think that saying that people can make their own wiki somewhere else is not a good thing. Wikipedia
is
already established, and the more regional languages we offer, the richer the encyclopedia becomes.
The fact that Wikipedia is now a well-known "brand" might raise a new issue in the future: for some languages (especially idioms where the attribute "separate language" is disputed) it could look like some kind of recognition or proof of their distinctness if they are granted a subdomain here. In those cases, new Wikipedias could be requested not for the primary aim of collecting and distributing knowledge (i. e. writing an encyclopedia) but rather more or less solely for the aim of promoting a language (or even the political, religious ect. idea behind it).
Arbeo
P. S. Sorry for posting so much today!
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On 11/10/05, Arbeo M arbeo_m@yahoo.de wrote:
Ronline wrote:
I think that saying that people can make their own wiki somewhere else is not a good thing. Wikipedia
is
already established, and the more regional languages we offer, the richer the encyclopedia becomes.
The fact that Wikipedia is now a well-known "brand" might raise a new issue in the future: for some languages (especially idioms where the attribute "separate language" is disputed) it could look like some kind of recognition or proof of their distinctness if they are granted a subdomain here. In those cases, new Wikipedias could be requested not for the primary aim of collecting and distributing knowledge (i. e. writing an encyclopedia) but rather more or less solely for the aim of promoting a language (or even the political, religious ect. idea behind it).
Arbeo
P. S. Sorry for posting so much today!
Hoi, Yeah Wikipedia is "well" known but this depends really on who you ask. In some places in the Western world hardly anyone has heard of Wikipedia even if there is a version in the major and the minor languages of a country. There is still a long way to go before we reach these people.
This discussion about focusing on what we do is in a way a "red herring", the suggestion that we should has been repeated all to often. The arguments why it is not that relevant can be found either by going back through the archives.. in a nutshell a new project will attract its own community and the other projects do not grow any less because of it.
When a group of enthusiasts is willing to jump through the hoops in order to get their Wikipedia, I would welcome them to it. The hard work starts when they have their Wikipedia. It takes a lot of perseverance and marketing to create a vibrant community. When they do they have proven their case. When they do not, it does not really matter as it does not detract one iota from any of the other Wikipedia or from any of the other projects. "in het veen kijkt men niet op een turfje".
With Ultimate Wiktionary I hope we will end the creation of new Wiktionaries, all languages will be welcome even tlh :) .
Thanks, GerardM
Well I read some very interesting mails so far about "everyone knowing" Wikipedia and minority/rare languages. And I read that "anyone" knows wikipedia.
The reality is somewhat different ...
About anyone knowikg Wikipedia: It is the period of the year when in many places in the world people create cribs. Here in Maiori there is a long tradition and they indeed started. So I thought it would be a good idea to pass these (for now) three cribs and take photos while they are being built: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_presepe_napoletano_a_Maiori (I already have some more pictures and if I have time this week-end I'll upload them). So I thought I should take the printout of the article as well as some other related articles with me and hand them over to the groups.
These groups who build cribs are mainly composed of young people between 15 and 30 years of age: the typical user group of wikipedia one might think ... well ... surprise: NONE of them knew about wikipedia - neither about the Italian one nor the Neapolitan one. It took me quite a lot of time to explain what wikipedia is and is about and that everyone can contribute and ... and ... and ... and this four times (four times because one of these printours was handed over to a Neapolitan writing traffic warden).
What to do about this? Well I have my ideas ... and I am doing already some stuff... see below.
Now languages of minorities: Neapolitan is not really a minority language it is spoken by over 7 million people, it is written, but it is not considered to be a high level language. People tell their kids to talk "correctly" meaning that they should speak Italian instead of Neapolitan ... and indeed many young people speak some kind of hybrid Neapolitan/Italian language, but none of both in everyday life. Now Neapolitan is not declared to be an endangered language by the UNESCO, but it is indeed one if no-one starts making facts. There were already some improvements started by the Accademia Napulitana, but due to the lack of co-operating people they stopped.... well this is something that does not make sense. If a project does not work, you have to understand the reasons and then search solutions to get rid of that problems. As for Neapolitan we have some regular editors, but well: we are not known and when you go to institutions and ask them for help they don't help you because they don't know about Wikipedia ...
Not a funny situation, but this is the facts.
Now my first cold shower about how good Wikipedia in general is known came down this week ... we need to do loads of work on that ...
Steps that are useless at the very beginning 1) talk to authorities 2) talk to language institutions
Steps that are needed: 1) printout articles people can read anywhere - so "space" for articles on blackboards (yes they still exist down here) that are interesting and attracting to people. 2) printout articles to be given to schools 3) newsletters (anyone who is interested in how such a newsletter looks like: send me an e-mail and I send you an example) 4) talk, talk, talk personally
Once you have some representative contents and a nice bunch of editors: 1) contact clubs about various themes where there is already an article and ask them to improve it 2) contact institutions that care about that language 3) contact schools and ask for "specific" co-operation and many, many other ways
It is useless to talk on the wikipedia lists about your ideas - you must get out of it to contact other people speaking the language you want to promote. Talking only here means that you restrict your message to those people who anyway know about wikipedia and about your project - it does not help you to get further help to create what you are aiming for.
You need people, the right people, and therefore you must create a network for YOUR language or the language you want to support. Many single people will help you to reach out to even more people and this will help you to reach the ones in every city that speak that specific language. Once you have these contacts and your wikipedia is started create projects that are feasible for almost everyone.
1) History of your town 2) Churches of your town 3) Traditions of your town 4) Monuments of your town 5) photos 6) legends and whatever - but give people a definite thing they can work on - at the beginning new contributors often don't know where to start - so you must give them some kind of "way" and you must take everyone by the hand.
You will find people that give you articles written in a word document or even by hand on a piece of paper: insert it, print it out and give it back to them. If possible create a user account for these peope and add the articles with the name of the person who created it. Give them something back where they can be proud of.
Be sure: you will not be able to create editors by only talking - there is much of yourself involved - you need to live your project and represent it fully with yourself otherwise you will not be convincing.
If you have problems to get your wikipedia started: well, start to write articles even in txt format - make them GFDL put them at disposal anywhere - if you have contents and if you show how important a project for you is: no-one will be able to say no, you may not create your own wikipedia. You can get it, but talking alone is not enough.
As to myself: I am not a 100% Wikipedian - I feel more at home with Wiktionary, but I love the Neapolitan language (as well as Sicilian :-) and some others. That's why I wantedt nap.wikipedia.org to start. We have it there - I do myself what I can and we are getting forward step by step. Be not astonished if at a certain point I will try to pull up another wikipedia ... but that one will be much more difficult for me since I cannot do any direct "marketing" to people - Griko Salentino - inbetween there is Ultimate Wiktionary that will require really a lot of my time, but things are feasible. For now Griko is still quite far away since first of al nap.wikipedia needs to be a really "living" project with a certain number of regular editors and reading people, otherwise it would not make sense to work on it.
So please do things - if I can help you in some way: just tell me. Please, instead of discussing things over and over again: just sit down on your computer and write the first articles if you want a wikipedia in that language and you cannot get it. Do your things by e-mail, within a yahoo-group (maybe an already existing one considering that specific language) - if you live in the region: reach out to poeple - make them dream your dream. And go :-)
Well I hope this helps - in particular those who want their wikipedia and seem to have no chance (you have a chance - a unique one - go and do things and you will see things happen).
Have a great week-end!
Ciao, Sabine
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