Is there anybody who supports the ban against me besides Clutch and Zoe? Im sure Isis does, but I guess she was banned for some reason?? To be honest I don't think Clutch's opinion matters, he seems to support a ban against me because he thought my user page was too cluttered and I misspelled too many words or something. As for Zoe...I don't know what problem she has against me and she won't talk about it, is there anybody else? Maybe Larry Sanger or mav or Brion Vibber? I don't really know, being banned was good for me since I taught myself c++ but, uh, I sorta need to get back to working on the articles. wikipedia-l-request(a)wikipedia.org wrote:Send Wikipedia-l mailing list submissions to wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to wikipedia-l-request(a)wikipedia.org You can reach the person managing the list at wikipedia-l-admin(a)wikipedia.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikipedia-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: [WikiEN-l] User:MyPasswordIsHELLO (Oliver Pereira) 2. Re: ISBN links (Fred Bauder) 3. Re: ISBN links (Jimmy Wales) 4. Re: ISBN links (Jimmy Wales) 5. Re: ISBN links (Fred Bauder) 6. Re: [WikiEN-l] Please revoke Isis' sysop status (Jonathan Walther) 7. Re: [WikiEN-l] Isis -Tarquin dispute. (Jonathan Walther) 8. Re: Re: [WikiEN-l] Please revoke Isis' sysop status (Jimmy Wales) 9. Re: ISBN links (Axel Boldt) 10. Re: racialisme (Jimmy Wales) 11. banning is for goatse! not for lir! (Bridget [name omitted for privacy reasons]) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 13:30:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Oliver Pereira To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org cc: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] User:MyPasswordIsHELLO Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Jason Williams wrote: Hmm. The existence of this account would seem to make banning people impossible, since anyone could sign in under this name and make edits. However, I suspect that the intention of whoever made the account was to enable people to make truly anonymous edits. Simply not signing in at all would probably allow one to do this for a while, but people might eventually spot the pattern in one's edits and work out which IP address corresonds to which user. I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of anonymous edits myself, because of the difficulty in contacting contributors to check things with them. However, if there is a consensus that anonymous edits are a good idea, there could perhaps be a new check box on the "Edting" page, saying, "Make this edit anonymous". I'm not necessarily recommending this, but I suppose it might come in useful if someone wants to make a valid contribution which they nevertheless would rather not be associated with. Oliver +-------------------------------------------+ | Oliver Pereira | | Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science | | University of Southampton | | omp199(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk | +-------------------------------------------+ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 07:31:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] ISBN links From: Fred Bauder To: Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Amazons prices are higher (and they are not politically correct), but the listings on Amaazon often include reviews which are quite helpful. I personally have never purchased a book from Amazon (always able to find a cheaper book elsewhere) but frankly if you use the reviews, you might consider buying there. At any rate I think it's a personal choice. Anyway I hate polical correctness so much that I would dismiss that notion out of hand just on that basis. Fred (an ABE bookseller) --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:35:07 -0800 From: Jimmy Wales To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] ISBN links Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Magnus Manske wrote: Wow, I don't know. My first inclination is to list several sources, and if people don't like some of them, then they shouldn't shop there. It's really not a good idea for us to get involved in the particulars of endorsing/not-endorsing particular shops. --Jimbo --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 06:36:22 -0800 From: Jimmy Wales To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] ISBN links Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Axel Boldt wrote: I'm listening. This sounds like a valid objection to this particular technical detail. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 07:37:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] ISBN links From: Fred Bauder To: Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Marvellously wrongheaded, most books published after 1970 have ISBN numbers and are most easily found an purchased if you start with that number (although it can get complicated as books are reprinted under diffent numbers). The general practice in the bookselling business currently relies on the ISBN number and will for the forseeable future. Fred an ABE bookseller > From: Axel Boldt > Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org > Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 17:22:46 -0800 (PST) > To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org > Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] ISBN links > > > If versions of a book are being published by different parties, as is > true for many important books that are in the public domain, then > ISBN's are furthermore inherently POV, since they pick out a single > publisher. > > No reference work, encyclopedia, library catalog, bibliography, article > or book ever refers to books by ISBN number. Because they are not book > identifiers. Given properly formatted author and title, our software > could and should query bookstores and libary catalogs. > > I think I said it before: meaningless numbers are worse than no > numbers. > > Axel > > WikiKarma: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_number > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Wikipedia-l mailing list > Wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org > http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 05:52:52 -0800 From: Jonathan Walther To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Please revoke Isis' sysop status Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 12:37:18PM +0100, Erik Moeller wrote: , I r in I object to this request, and request that Isis sysop status be left alone. Isis has repeatedly asked for clarification, in very polite terms. I have not seen attempts to answer him. Isis is acting out of concern for his own legal liability. I think it would be the right thing to do for you, Jimbo, or for Tarquin to give Isis a brief note of assurance that he is not liable. As you may or may not have noticed, Isis works as a paralegal. He has experience of how things work in the law, so has a better idea than the rest of us if he actually is in legal danger or not. Far better to have him onside and working for us, than to snub him and lose his valuable services. Jonathan --=20 Geek House Productions, Ltd. Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting, QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation, General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998 Phone: 604-435-1205 Email: djw(a)reactor-core.org Webpage: http://reactor-core.org Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC V5R2W2 --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk-- --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 07:28:07 -0800 From: Jonathan Walther To: wikien-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Isis -Tarquin dispute. Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org --5vNYLRcllDrimb99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 03:20:25PM -0000, Eugene Gill wrote: his be in) You seem ignorant of how the law works. Isis has brought up some valid issues that the Wikipedia needs to deal with for it's own future safety and continuance. I really hope the Wikipedia will not be the type of project that shoots the messenger when problems are pointed out. Isis is a valuable sysop, and I would be sad to see his privileges taken away. Wikipedia, not Ostrichpedia! Jonathan --=20 Geek House Productions, Ltd. Providing Unix & Internet Contracting and Consulting, QA Testing, Technical Documentation, Systems Design & Implementation, General Programming, E-commerce, Web & Mail Services since 1998 Phone: 604-435-1205 Email: djw(a)reactor-core.org Webpage: http://reactor-core.org Address: 2459 E 41st Ave, Vancouver, BC V5R2W2 --5vNYLRcllDrimb99 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline --5vNYLRcllDrimb99-- --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 08:29:46 -0800 From: Jimmy Wales To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: [WikiEN-l] Please revoke Isis' sysop status Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org I'm responding to this one privately. Jonathan, I don't think you've got the basic facts of the dispute straight at all. I don't want us to discuss this one on the list too much right now, and never unless it becomes absolutely necessary, but I did want to say that Jonathan's factual summary is not even remotely correct. Jonathan Walther wrote: --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:30:35 -0800 (PST) From: Axel Boldt Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] ISBN links To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org --- Fred Bauder wrote: I don't dispute that. Most books published after 500 BC have an author and a title. Since many books are eventually reprinted under different numbers (softcover, second edition), your second half sentence seems to contradict the first. How is searching for a book by author and title any more complicated than searching for it by ISBN? You will find all editions by all publishers that way, hardcover and softcover, printed, Braille or on tape, whatever. Sure. ISBN's were invented by and for booksellers and serve a useful purpose there, namely to identify a specific edition of a book so that it can be ordered from a wholesaler and delivered to the customer. But they don't serve a useful purpose for someone who wants to locate a book in a (used) bookstore or library. These people are Wikipedia's clientele. Axel __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:24:28 -0800 From: Jimmy Wales To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] racialisme Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org julien tayon wrote: I think we can (and should) say that the theory that "Shoah never existed" is held only by a very tiny minority of people, and that no notable historian takes such claims seriously. We absolutely should _not_ act as if holocaust revisionism and standard history are equally valid. To do so would itself be a perversion of NPOV. --Jimbo --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:28:20 -0800 (PST) From: Bridget [name omitted for privacy reasons] To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] banning is for goatse! not for lir! Reply-To: wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org --0-1943413075-1044296900=:27526 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I object strongly to DW being called an idiot. I resent the fact that it is considered ok to call him an idiot. He brought up some very legitimate complaints, not the least of which is that Zoe openly reverts changes based not on their merit, but merely because she doesn't like the user who made them. She is open about this, she has admitted it, she has argued, "But User:XX made the change, why should we listen to that idiot?" It is true that wikipedia is full of argument and that this is a problem, but the problem is not merely those, like DW, TMC, or even myself the mongrel troll Vera Cruz, which engage in inappropriate behavior not because we are incorrigible, but because we honestly don't always know better. For example, DW does not know that informing JW that he has a system of approved ignorance is not going to come across well, nor did I know that arguing that it is racist to refuse to use forign spellings would be bad. Certainly I have learned to be increasingly non-argumentative, and I am sure DW, TMC, 172, Danny, etc can definitely become even better contributors than they are. So no, I don't think we are the real problem, even if we can from time to time be offensive because we don't have a high enough level of class or protocol. I think there is a serious problem with people such as Isis, who insults people (me others), refuses to discuss the problem with the people she hates, and then winds up threatening to sue somebody for libel, a crime she regularly commits herself! There is an amazing difference between the two groups, the most notably difference being that Im no advocating banning anybody. Isis can call me names all day, I don't care. User:172 can go insane with insisting that his dry rambling articles are the ultimate nobel prize explanation of every subject every written. But I don't want to ban them. Banning is for people that load goatse or change the dates of WWII to 1836-2321. Banning is not for somebody who writes, "Columbus was a slavetrader" or "The Israelis are actively conducting genocide in Palestine". Yes, anyone with brains know those statements are absolute truth, but it takes time to learn NPOV. At this wiki, we have a group of people who are snide and elitist. They do not have perfect NPOV, they do not have perfect decisions, but they believe they do. They reinforce their belief because they are just about the only people who read or talk on the mailing list and they are arguing all over the wiki, thus making them feel that they are the wiki, and everybody else is a noobie or non-contributor. Those people should not be banned, they should not lose their sysop privileges. But, at the same time, the bullshit has got to fucking stop. You don't sue somebody from England because they tell u that as a paralegal you don't know jack about law. You don't call people an idiot simply because they don't agree with anything u think. Id like to talk about how I shouldn't be banned, its pretty obvious that Im somebody who is going to contribute valuable material. I don't think even my biggest opponents can deny the fact that just about every time I click submit I am adding something of value and just about everytime there is a problem, I back down or its eventually decided that I was correct. I know Im not a problem, but I can't convince anybody of it. There is a reason that legal courts do not require a defendant to prove their innocence, its IMPOSSIBLE to prove one's innocence. It cannot be done no matter what the crime or no matter how innocent you are. Not a single one of you can prove that you were not Adolf Hitler who committed a genocide and then, via parapscyhological phenomena, teleported himself into the future. === message truncated === --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now