Members and Mr. Crocker,
I was responding directly to the post by Mr. Pobratyn. He said:
I have a bit of a moral dilemma here: some articles on wikipedia seem to pop-up non-wikified and written slightly 'too well'. It seems obvious that it is a copy/paste job from another source. What should we/I do in such a case? Delete it?
I take plagiarism extremely seriously and many members of Nupedia, at least, know that. For the same reason, I take an unsupported claim of plagiarism extremely seriously and consider it a dangerous move.
Mr. Pobratyn cited as the basis for his suspicions, articles that appear, I guess, full-blown, unwikified, and written "too well."
I reacted to this, because I have posted articles that way, although I usually wikify them, somewhat. As I said, this is because they are literally copied from my own work.
On a more general level, these symptoms in an article or entry are not a basis to delete them. This requires proof that the entry has been "borrowed" from a copyrighted source.
If you gentlemen have some particular author/s in mind, I suggest you put your heads together and try to find the source. But to delete them out of hand, implying they are plagiarised, to me. is assuming guilt until one proves oneself innocent. I think a better approach, and the one that supposedly prevails in the U.S.A., is to assume someone is innocent until proven guilty.
As far as my insulting the original poster, I say them let him speak for himself. I really prefer not to get involved in what you, Mr. Crocker, think that the original poster feels. Only he can say whether he found my post insulting. C'est ca.
As Ever,
Ruth Ifcher
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The fact that you would consider an honest and concerned post personally insulting to you is absurd, and is itself insulting to the original poster who was obviously sincere and interested in solving a real problem, and didn't mention any names (in fact, I'm almost certain I know who he _was_ referring to, and it wasn't you--and I'm not going to say more than that).
The problem itself (of discovering and removing copyrighted material) is real, serious, and needs to be dealt with. Sure, you and I may copy and paste only from our own or public domain material because we understand the law, but many people on Wikipedia HAVE copied copyrighted material, and that's a problem.
There is no such thing as an "administrator" in Wikipedia in the sense of someone responsible for its content, nor should there be. Nupedia has those (and should); Wikipedia just has us, and we are just as responsible for its content as anyone else. It does have a few folks to set policy, but even they have been very respectful of the community process of content creation and not tried to subvert it by establishing "control" or "ownership". Further, it is obviously impractical to have an infintely scalable content-creation method with non-scalable editing and expect to keep up. Wikipedia CANNOT work unless EVERYONE is an editor and administrator as well as an author.
The suggestion of looking for phrases on the web is useful; it does often turn up the copyrighted source of a cut-and-paste job. I would further suggest that when you find the source of the material, document it; i.e., make a talk page or editing comment along the lines of "Delete copyrighted material from ...", so that everyone else benefits from your research and knows why it was deleted.
But if you can't find the source, I think you do have to give an author the benefit of the doubt--especially logged-in authors. If the work _is_ copyrighted, removal upon notification by the copyright holder is sufficient to avoid legal penalties.
0
From: rose.parks@att.net
I was responding directly to the post by Mr.Pobratyn. He said:
I have a bit of a moral dilemma here: some articles on wikipedia seem to pop-up non-wikified and written slightly 'too well'. It seems obvious that it is a copy/paste job from another source. What should we/I do in such a case? Delete it?
I take plagiarism extremely seriously and manymembers of Nupedia, at least, know that. For the same reason, I take an unsupported claim of plagiarism extremely seriously and consider it a dangerous move.
Mr. Pobratyn cited as the basis for his suspicions,articles that appear, I guess, full-blown, unwikified, and written "too well."
For fear of seeming not to let other people speak for themselves, I won't presume to interpret anyone else, but just give my own opinions. My own opinions happen to be very close to the way I'd interpret what Wojcek wrote, though. Basically, I regard one of my basic "jobs" (never assigned by anyone except myself, though) on Wikipedia to check for plagiarism/copyright infringement. How do I do this? Basically, I look at the RecentChanges page, and if there are any new names or numbers there, I check their work fairly carefully. Very often, it's obvious that what they wrote wasn't cribbed from somewhere else ("Why would anyone post to the web what they have written? It's not too good"). But sometimes, particularly from new people, I'll see a full-blown article appear, written quite well, and that makes me instantly suspicious. :-) Why? Just because too often in the past we've seen new people posting copyrighted articles. **Obviously**, it's not because I think no one writing for Wikipedia is capable of writing anything very good.
So what I do when I come across a good article from a new person is just what Jimbo does--check it on Google by finding a string of words unlikely to appear in any other article, pasting it into the Google search form (surrounded by quotes). I do that with two or three different strings of words, just to be sure. If I find nothing, then I grudgingly admit that the article was probably not plagiarized from an online source.
Of course, even if an article is (1) good and (2) copied from another source, that doesn't mean that it is plagiarized. Someone might have copied it from her own work, for example. Grand! Wonderful! Thanks! None of the above-described procedure and (quite prudent, I'd say) supporting opinions controvert the wonderfulness of that practice.
Now, suppose I do find an instance where an article was obviously copied from an Internet source. Do I immediately scream plagiarism? Almost always, but not necessarily: I try to make a point of checking to see if the original was released under some sort of open content license, or was public domain. Usually, of course, there's no indication that it was, so I do scream plagiarism.
Who should remove the plagiarism spotted? Whoever spots it first. Might this not constitute an insult to the person who put the article up on Wikipedia? What if that person wrote the original? Well, that's interesting. It could happen. We could, I suppose, make a habit of asking politely, "Say, did you just happen to plagiarize this article?" But many plagiarists are too embarrassed by being caught, too clueless, or too just outright dishonest, so it seems reasonable not to expect an answer to such a question. So suppose we have a dozen plagiarized articles on Wikipedia with polite questions, "Say, did you plagiarize this?" appended to them. I'd rather have a dozen removed articles, with notices saying, "I found this article at [URL]. I found no evidence that it was free or public domain. I am assuming that this was an instance of copyright infringement. Please do not paste copyrighted material into Wikipedia!"
This is something that anyone can and should do. I *totally* agree with what Lee Crocker said here:
There is no such thing as an "administrator" in Wikipedia in the sense of someone responsible for its content, nor should there be. Nupedia has those (and should); Wikipedia just has us, and we are just as responsible for its content as anyone else. It does have a few folks to set policy, but even they have been very respectful of the community process of content creation and not tried to subvert it by establishing "control" or "ownership". Further, it is obviously impractical to have an infintely scalable content-creation method with non-scalable editing and expect to keep up. Wikipedia CANNOT work unless EVERYONE is an editor and administrator as well as an author.
In the last four days, it has been difficult (to say the least) for me to get on the net. (Actually, it would have been rather easy, if I had known what to do!) I, and other people responsible for making sure Bomis doesn't get into legal trouble over copyright violation, was relying on Wikipedia participants to keep the steady stream of new people honest.
Notice, there is no one claiming to be editor-in-chief or even editor of Wikipedia. A wiki, by its design, doesn't need one. Wikipedia needs people to act as "gardeners" (in Jimbo's metaphor). The reason Wikipedia is so successful at creating content is that there aren't any editors standing in the way of content creation. This means there's a lot of garbage that needs cleaning up, and the whole thing is a work-in-progress, but a lot work *is* done, and we *do* have a lot of very good articles and many that are improving.
Larry
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