Hi Wouter !
First of all, let me point out that I fully agree that there is no sense in including Saterlandic Frisian articles in the existing West Frisian Wikipedia. The language (along with North Frisian and its dialects) is just too distinct for that. I think Mark got it right - even though living in Arizona! - when he was writing about three Frisian languages. One might add that - as far as I know - Saterlandic is the only surving dialect of the East Frisian language which formerly covered basically the whole region of East Frisia (including the East Frisian islands). By the way, in Germany only the terms "Saterländisch" or "Saterfriesisch" are used for the language while "Ostfriesisch" nowadays refers to the regional variant of Lox Saxon (Plattdeutsch) spoken in East Frisia. When talking about the Frisian language spoken in the north of the Netherlands Germans generally use the term "Westfriesisch" in order not to confuse it with Frisian spoken in Germany. However the Dutch simply call it "Fries" or "Frysk" and many might not be aware of the variants spoken in Germany because they have relatively few speakers compared to West Frisian.
Having said all that, here's my main point. I value your enthusiasm and I am in favour any appropriate means for preserving and promoting endangered minority languages (which are a precious cultural heritage) such as Saterlandic Frisian. However, I think it's just impossible to create a useful online encyclopedia depending on volunteer editors out of a community of barely 2000 native speakers. Please think about it. From looking at your name, I guess you are not a native speaker, are you? Please don't get me wrong. Of course, you can set up a Saterlandic wikipedia technically. But once it is installed would it ever have the slightest chance of becoming a useful, reliable source of information? Could it ever really flourish? If so, great! But given the small number of Saterlandic speakers I really doubt that. And please remember that even for those, say, 1.800 people the language they read and write in is German.
How many editors does a wikipedia need to work (even if only at a very modest level)? E. g. the Dutch wikipedia (with c. 55,000 articles) currently has 9,333 registered editors, out of a language community of maybe 23 million. That equals a ratio of 0.04 % editors - and even if that number might still grow in the future, most wikipedia languages probably won't even reach that percentage. Now try to break that down for Saterlandic! In my opinion the only way for a wikipedia to become a success is to bring together a large number of people to cooperate. As far as Saterlandic is concerned, that is just not possible. That is a pity, of course. But it's the truth.
If you think I am too pessimistic please have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Multilingual_ranking_February_2005, ranks 86 through 161. It's not that those wikipedias have just been established recently. Matter of fact, most of them have existed for quite some time now. Some of them have been around for a couple of years or more. And all of them have been them have been set up with the best of intentions by committed people just like you. And many of those languages have millions of speakers. But nevertheless, those wikipedias just aren't running. I always get kind of sad when I look at them. I surely wouldn't like to see a Saterlandic edition ending up like that.
Just some thoughts that crossed my mind
Boris
wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.03.05 20:43:28:
I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further details can be read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the requests page.
Thanks in advance,
Caesarion
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Hi Boris!
Thanks for your feedback. The objections you pointed out certainly make sense, and I have been fully aware ever since the idea of creating a Saterfrisian Wikipedia came to my mind.
First: We might disagree slightly on the aim(s) of the Wikipedia project. Its main goal is, of course, providing freely editable and downloadable information. A second aim is to create encyclopaedias in as many languages as possible. You might be right in pointing out that a language with only less than 2,000 speakers is unlikely to achieve the size of, say, the Dutch one. But should we care? A small encyclopaedia of only a few thousand articles would do well, I think.
Second, you point out, by reason, the apparent lack of interest with speakers of many languages whose Wikipedias do not expand. But there is no direct link between the number of speakers and the number of articles; indeed, small languages like Cornish (perhaps twice as much speakers as Seeltersk) do relatively well, while numerous other major or middle sized language Wikipedias seem never to emerge from their slumber. It is for a great deal a PR matter. If some of those young Saterfrisians who became fluent acquired speakers in recent days can be enthousiasmed for this project, it will have at least a chance to succeed.
Third, you pose, by reason, that all of the Seeltersk speakers comprehend (both High and Low) German. The German wikipedia, being the second largest of all, can indeed provide sufficient information for everything the Saterfrisians wish to know. But that argument, if used against this and similar initiatives, would take the base away under the Westlauwer, Low Saxon, Alemannic, Limburgish, Friulian, Romansch, Provençal and many other Wikipedias. A language is not only, though mainly, a means of communication, but also an important bearer of culture. Endangered and small languages need to be cultivated and, in these modern days, they can only survive if they are frequently used in situations formerly reserved to the major languages they are threatened by. I my opinion, a Wikipedia in the concerning language would enhance its status and support its claims and struggle for recognition (though Seeltersk is already recognised).
Finally, you are right in pointing out I am not a native speaker; I speak Dutch (proper) as my native language. But checking the Requests list on Wikimedia you must encounter Scott Gall, who recently proposed several new Wikipedias in languages that are not his native one (and some of which are even smaller and more endangered than Seeltersk). It seems to be not so unusual. Actually, that zealous user directly inspired me to request a Wikipedia in Seeltersk.
Wouter Steenbeek
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Having said all that, here's my main point. I value your enthusiasm and I am in favour any appropriate means for preserving and promoting endangered minority languages (which are a precious cultural heritage) such as Saterlandic Frisian. However, I think it's just impossible to create a useful online encyclopedia depending on volunteer editors out of a community of barely 2000 native speakers. Please think about it. From looking at your name, I guess you are not a native speaker, are you? Please don't get me wrong. Of course, you can set up a Saterlandic wikipedia technically. But once it is installed would it ever have the slightest chance of becoming a useful, reliable source of information? Could it ever really flourish? If so, great! But given the small number of Saterlandic speakers I really doubt that. And please remember that even for those, say, 1.800 people the language they read and write in is German.
I for one think that a smaller community (even a "microcommunity" perhaps) is more conducive to the Wiki concept because unlike such large communities as Dutch or German speakers, it is very conceivable that /every single speaker/ of Saterlandic Frisian could become involved in such a Wikipedia.
I once had an idea, that we could set up a Hopi Wikipedia, and then work on promotion of it on Hopi, get elders and teenagers involved, try to get middle-aged people involved as well, and eventually hope for 90% community involvement of Hopi speakers. When such a point is reached, it is a virtual mirror of the real-life community, except it is also working towards building an encyclopaedia.
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the resources to begin such a project, and generally Hopi people are very distrusting of white people in such matters (and with good reason, too) and although a medium level of involvement may be reached, it might be hard to get elders involved in what they see as a possible attempt by whites to poison or kill Hopi language and culture.
However, in the future I will consider this idea, but I think there are more ideal communities, for example the community of Havasupai speakers living at the bottom of the Grand Canyon - there are less of them, only a few hundred, but unlike Hopi, the entire community speaks the language. (there are at least 3 monolinguals, although there are more for Hopi) With the already developing advanced infrastructure of the community, it is much more conceivable that total community involvement in a Havasupai-language Wikipedia could be reached, including everybody from the elders to the schoolchildren, all of whom speak the language and are isolated by their location (at the bottom of the Grand Canyon).
How many editors does a wikipedia need to work (even if only at a very modest level)? E. g. the Dutch wikipedia (with c. 55,000 articles) currently has 9,333 registered editors, out of a language community of maybe 23 million. That equals a ratio of 0.04 % editors - and even if that number might still grow in the future, most wikipedia languages probably won't even reach that percentage. Now try to break that down for Saterlandic! In my opinion the only way for a wikipedia to become a success is to bring together a large number of people to cooperate. As far as Saterlandic is concerned, that is just not possible. That is a pity, of course. But it's the truth.
Why is it not possible? When you have such a small speaker community, promotion is easier - you could even go door-to-door!
Even at the worst case, I think that 30% community involvement is there, given promotion effort.
If you think I am too pessimistic please have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Multilingual_ranking_February_2005, ranks 86 through 161. It's not that those wikipedias have just been established recently. Matter of fact, most of them have existed for quite some time now. Some of them have been around for a couple of years or more. And all of them have been them have been set up with the best of intentions by committed people just like you. And many of those languages have millions of speakers. But nevertheless, those wikipedias just aren't running. I always get kind of sad when I look at them. I surely wouldn't like to see a Saterlandic edition ending up like that.
Most of these Wikipedias were requested by people who had the notion "I have heard of this language. There is no Wikipedia in it. It should be created." but were never followed up after their creation.
In addition, even these ill-requested Wikipedias are picking up speed, one-by-one... look at the flurry of activity on ka:, li:, hy:, etc. which had previously been inactive for months (li: actually had 0 pages)! ka: and hy:, two important languages of the Caucasus region (Georgian and Armenian), now have over 100 articles and are quickly growing more! Unfortunately it seems that such success is limited almost exclusively to European languages and more recently Indic languages to a certain degree, although African languages (examples are Bambara bm:, Wolof wo:, Amharic am:, Lingala ln:) have seen some unexpected activity recently.
However, it seems to me that Wouter has some connection to this language (given his intimate knowledge of the specific differences from West Frisian), and given that he has said he started a test Wikipedia on Meta, I don't think this is idle talk from a non-speaker.
Mark
The most respected Mr. Mark Williamson wrote:
I once had an idea, that we could set up a Hopi Wikipedia, and then work on promotion of it on Hopi, get elders and teenagers involved, try to get middle-aged people involved as well, and eventually hope for 90% community involvement of Hopi speakers. When such a point is reached, it is a virtual mirror of the real-life community, except it is also working towards building an encyclopaedia.
Instead of only reporting on your hopes and dreams, I wish that you would, once each month or so, take the time to report on what you have indeed accomplished. Which new language Wikipedias did you succeed to get started, and how many articles have been produced there? So far, I get the impression that this number is zero, and that surely must be wrong. So please enlighten me.
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the resources to begin such a project,
But you certainly have the time to write a lot of messages on this list.
From: Lars Aronsson lars@aronsson.se Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Saterlandic Frisian Wikipedia Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:47:24 +0100 (CET)
The most respected Mr. Mark Williamson wrote:
I once had an idea, that we could set up a Hopi Wikipedia, and then work on promotion of it on Hopi, get elders and teenagers involved, try to get middle-aged people involved as well, and eventually hope for 90% community involvement of Hopi speakers. When such a point is reached, it is a virtual mirror of the real-life community, except it is also working towards building an encyclopaedia.
Instead of only reporting on your hopes and dreams, I wish that you would, once each month or so, take the time to report on what you have indeed accomplished. Which new language Wikipedias did you succeed to get started, and how many articles have been produced there? So far, I get the impression that this number is zero, and that surely must be wrong. So please enlighten me.
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the resources to begin such a project,
But you certainly have the time to write a lot of messages on this list.
Please, POLITESSE! Let's play the ball, not the man! The question is whether or not such small projects can succeed, not what mr. Williamson does in his free hours or which of his projects succeed(ed).
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The most respected Mr. Mark Williamson wrote:
I once had an idea, that we could set up a Hopi Wikipedia, and then work on promotion of it on Hopi, get elders and teenagers involved, try to get middle-aged people involved as well, and eventually hope for 90% community involvement of Hopi speakers. When such a point is reached, it is a virtual mirror of the real-life community, except it is also working towards building an encyclopaedia.
Instead of only reporting on your hopes and dreams, I wish that you would, once each month or so, take the time to report on what you have indeed accomplished. Which new language Wikipedias did you succeed to get started, and how many articles have been produced there? So far, I get the impression that this number is zero, and that surely must be wrong. So please enlighten me.
It depends on what you mean by "get started". I am reluctant to take direct credit for anything since there is no successful Wikipedia where I have contributed most of the articles.
I requested scn.wikipedia, which currently has 489 articles, and was responsible for recruiting the person who was really responsible for most of the actual work, Mr Giuseppe DAngelo.
I originally suggested lb.wikipedia to Catherine (Brisèis), currently with 3476 articles, although beyond that I can take no credit with the exception of the logo.
I don't feel that I can take much credit for any of my other contributions, since they were mostly small, but they include things like adding a translated table-of-contents to a previously vacant or nearly-vacant Wikipedia, catching new users on inactive Wikipedias quickly to suggest a course of action (request adminship, translate interface, make logo) and to correct any mistakes they might make (signing articles, POV), and watching for vandalism on ALL inactive Wikipedias on a regular basis (when I'm awake, once every couple hours).
I am also responsible for the request for fur.wikipedia, which currently has a few articles (but it is still growing at a constant rate - it isn't dead), although Klenje is responsible for most of the content, and I am responsible for nearly everything so far on nv.wikipedia, including interface translation, content formulation, the logo, etc.
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the resources to begin such a project,
But you certainly have the time to write a lot of messages on this list.
Again, I think perception of this is distorted somewhat and largely based on a set period of time a while ago - when I first joined this list I posted short posts often thrice in a row, flooding the list with short annoying messages, however more recently while I still may be the most or one of the most active, the number of messages per day is much less.
Also, it doesn't take much time to write an e-mail, at least for me, although it takes a lot of time to travel from Phoenix to Kykotsmovi and to meet with officials and to write grant requests and work on community promotion.
Mark
Mark Williamson wrote:
But you certainly have the time to write a lot of messages on this list.
Again, I think perception of this is distorted somewhat and largely based on a set period of time a while ago - when I first joined this list I posted short posts often thrice in a row, flooding the list
I'm sorry to say that this perception is created anew every week, as long as this list is dominated by messages from you discussing your principal stance ("theory") rather than actual achievements ("practice"). Especially the long and tiresome discussion of various tongues from China seemed to be of very little practical use.
Also, it doesn't take much time to write an e-mail, at least for me,
It still takes a lot of time, at least for me, to read all the messages on this list. I wish there was more substance in them.
I'm also sorry to add to the impression that I'm only complaining. So let me end by telling that last month I scanned a public domain Finnish encyclopedia of 4 volumes and that more than 100 articles or stubs from it have already been imported into the Finnish Wikipedia, as shown by the category http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luokka:Pienest%C3%A4_tietosanakirjasta_tuodut_a...
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:26:22 +0100 (CET), Lars Aronsson lars@aronsson.se wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
But you certainly have the time to write a lot of messages on this list.
Again, I think perception of this is distorted somewhat and largely based on a set period of time a while ago - when I first joined this list I posted short posts often thrice in a row, flooding the list
I'm sorry to say that this perception is created anew every week, as long as this list is dominated by messages from you discussing your principal stance ("theory") rather than actual achievements ("practice"). Especially the long and tiresome discussion of various tongues from China seemed to be of very little practical use.
Whatever.
Also, it doesn't take much time to write an e-mail, at least for me,
It still takes a lot of time, at least for me, to read all the messages on this list. I wish there was more substance in them.
I'm also sorry to add to the impression that I'm only complaining. So let me end by telling that last month I scanned a public domain Finnish encyclopedia of 4 volumes and that more than 100 articles or stubs from it have already been imported into the Finnish Wikipedia, as shown by the category http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luokka:Pienest%C3%A4_tietosanakirjasta_tuodut_a...
So now not only are you complaining, but you're bragging? Great job, Lars. Great job.
Mark
Mark Williamson wrote:
So now not only are you complaining, but you're bragging? Great job, Lars. Great job.
Sorry Mark, if you wanted to put me down, you failed. You must try a lot harder to succeed with that. I'll be quiet now and watch you build your own reputation on this list and elsewhere.
I wasn't trying to put you down. Were you trying to put me down? If so, why?
Mark
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 01:32:47 +0100 (CET), Lars Aronsson lars@aronsson.se wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
So now not only are you complaining, but you're bragging? Great job, Lars. Great job.
Sorry Mark, if you wanted to put me down, you failed. You must try a lot harder to succeed with that. I'll be quiet now and watch you build your own reputation on this list and elsewhere.
-- Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se) Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 17:40:38 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
I wasn't trying to put you down. Were you trying to put me down? If so, why?
Gentlemen, please. If you want to put each other down, or argue about whether you're doing so, please take things off list. Very few of us care.
In general, I would suggest that before posting a single-line message, to really think about whether all of us need to read it. I don't think this was one of those cases.
Steve
That's encouraging and interesting Mark. Indeed I am convinced good communication is more important than the creative process itself.
You mention the Limburgish wikipedia. Did you know that its recent expansion is largely my work? I speak Limburgish, though I do so with an accent, I can write it and I know some of its speakers. The creator of the Limburgish Wikipedia does speak Limburgic, but realised that he could speak it far better than he could write it, so he was reluctant to write all to much. Anyway, I began to work and in my slipstreams a few other joined; thus we expanded the Limburgish wiki from 9 to the present 309 articles.
In this case, there are enough speakers, enough competent writers, but virtually no-one knew of the project. Currently we are doing more PR, and hope to attract more attention. In my opinion, I should learn from this and start my PR in Time...
Wouter
From: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com Reply-To: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com,wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Saterlandic Frisian Wikipedia Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 14:23:26 -0700
Having said all that, here's my main point. I value your enthusiasm and
I am in favour any appropriate means for preserving and promoting endangered minority languages (which are a precious cultural heritage) such as Saterlandic Frisian. However, I think it's just impossible to create a useful online encyclopedia depending on volunteer editors out of a community of barely 2000 native speakers. Please think about it. From looking at your name, I guess you are not a native speaker, are you? Please don't get me wrong. Of course, you can set up a Saterlandic wikipedia technically. But once it is installed would it ever have the slightest chance of becoming a useful, reliable source of information? Could it ever really flourish? If so, great! But given the small number of Saterlandic speakers I really doubt that. And please remember that even for those, say, 1.800 people the language they read and write in is German.
I for one think that a smaller community (even a "microcommunity" perhaps) is more conducive to the Wiki concept because unlike such large communities as Dutch or German speakers, it is very conceivable that /every single speaker/ of Saterlandic Frisian could become involved in such a Wikipedia.
I once had an idea, that we could set up a Hopi Wikipedia, and then work on promotion of it on Hopi, get elders and teenagers involved, try to get middle-aged people involved as well, and eventually hope for 90% community involvement of Hopi speakers. When such a point is reached, it is a virtual mirror of the real-life community, except it is also working towards building an encyclopaedia.
Unfortunately I don't have the time or the resources to begin such a project, and generally Hopi people are very distrusting of white people in such matters (and with good reason, too) and although a medium level of involvement may be reached, it might be hard to get elders involved in what they see as a possible attempt by whites to poison or kill Hopi language and culture.
However, in the future I will consider this idea, but I think there are more ideal communities, for example the community of Havasupai speakers living at the bottom of the Grand Canyon - there are less of them, only a few hundred, but unlike Hopi, the entire community speaks the language. (there are at least 3 monolinguals, although there are more for Hopi) With the already developing advanced infrastructure of the community, it is much more conceivable that total community involvement in a Havasupai-language Wikipedia could be reached, including everybody from the elders to the schoolchildren, all of whom speak the language and are isolated by their location (at the bottom of the Grand Canyon).
How many editors does a wikipedia need to work (even if only at a very
modest level)? E. g. the Dutch wikipedia (with c. 55,000 articles) currently has 9,333 registered editors, out of a language community of maybe 23 million. That equals a ratio of 0.04 % editors - and even if that number might still grow in the future, most wikipedia languages probably won't even reach that percentage. Now try to break that down for Saterlandic! In my opinion the only way for a wikipedia to become a success is to bring together a large number of people to cooperate. As far as Saterlandic is concerned, that is just not possible. That is a pity, of course. But it's the truth.
Why is it not possible? When you have such a small speaker community, promotion is easier - you could even go door-to-door!
Even at the worst case, I think that 30% community involvement is there, given promotion effort.
If you think I am too pessimistic please have a look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Multilingual_ranking_February_2005, ranks 86 through 161. It's not that those wikipedias have just been established recently. Matter of fact, most of them have existed for quite some time now. Some of them have been around for a couple of years or more. And all of them have been them have been set up with the best of intentions by committed people just like you. And many of those languages have millions of speakers. But nevertheless, those wikipedias just aren't running. I always get kind of sad when I look at them. I surely wouldn't like to see a Saterlandic edition ending up like that.
Most of these Wikipedias were requested by people who had the notion "I have heard of this language. There is no Wikipedia in it. It should be created." but were never followed up after their creation.
In addition, even these ill-requested Wikipedias are picking up speed, one-by-one... look at the flurry of activity on ka:, li:, hy:, etc. which had previously been inactive for months (li: actually had 0 pages)! ka: and hy:, two important languages of the Caucasus region (Georgian and Armenian), now have over 100 articles and are quickly growing more! Unfortunately it seems that such success is limited almost exclusively to European languages and more recently Indic languages to a certain degree, although African languages (examples are Bambara bm:, Wolof wo:, Amharic am:, Lingala ln:) have seen some unexpected activity recently.
However, it seems to me that Wouter has some connection to this language (given his intimate knowledge of the specific differences from West Frisian), and given that he has said he started a test Wikipedia on Meta, I don't think this is idle talk from a non-speaker.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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