Hi, at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
pentiumforever
Good idea. There is already a Simple English wikipedia; this initiative is similar. And since the German wikipedia is the second largest, finding enough willing contributers is a sure bet!
Wouter
From: pentiumforever@email.de Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:40:05 +0200
Hi, at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
pentiumforever
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From: pentiumforever@email.de Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:40:05 +0200
Hi, at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much
of
the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that
the
Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
pentiumforever
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Would make more sense if you proposed a Simple German Wikipedia, although judging by the performance of the Simple English one, I can't see there being many good contributors.
Hi,
wouldn't be Wikijunior a good project for this? http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior
Just take up specific topics, write on it for kids and group it to books, link it to the normal wikipedia and the wikipedia to wikibooks and you have it connected and kids can read easy stuff.
Ciao, Sabine -- Sabine Cretella s.cretella@wordsandmore.it skype: sabinecretella
pentiumforever@email.de wrote:
Hi, at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
pentiumforever
Well Sabine, we can both, can't we? Wikibooks leaves the space for things like these on the one hand; on the other hand, the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
Wouter
From: Sabine Cretella sabine_cretella@yahoo.it Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:04:54 +0200
Hi,
wouldn't be Wikijunior a good project for this? http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior
Just take up specific topics, write on it for kids and group it to books, link it to the normal wikipedia and the wikipedia to wikibooks and you have it connected and kids can read easy stuff.
Ciao, Sabine
Sabine Cretella s.cretella@wordsandmore.it skype: sabinecretella
pentiumforever@email.de wrote:
Hi, at first sorry for my bad english i'm just a (german) student ;)
If I read/write somethings in the German wikipedia I have seen that much of the articles are to havy for kids and teenager with no special skills in the subjekt. So I get the idea for a special Wikipedia for kids and teenager! Its is like a Wikijunior Magazin but with the different that the Wiki I mean is a complete encyclopedia and not only one special topic! I would be managed a Wiki for this in German.
What do you think about the idea? It is possibel to realise it under the roof of the Wikimedia? If yes anyone here that would be help me?
pentiumforever
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On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
… the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language. The majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other projects.
If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version should not be used as the reason for creating this.
Angela Administrator of the Simple English Wikipedia
On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language. The majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other projects.
If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version should not be used as the reason for creating this.
Angela Administrator of the Simple English Wikipedia
The fact that the Simple English wikipedia did not succeed so far (I won't say failed, because that sounds far too definitive to me) is certainly a reason for serious contemplation en reconsideration of this proposal. On the other hand, we could learn from what went wrong so far on simple: when starting einfach:, and build a frim community with clear goals and arrangements first. And attract enough willing contributors, of course.
Wouter
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I don't think we should build a Simple German Wikipedia, and I think we need to try to gradually phase the Simple English one into nothingness.
Mark
On 15/04/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
… the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language. The majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other projects.
If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version should not be used as the reason for creating this.
Angela Administrator of the Simple English Wikipedia
The fact that the Simple English wikipedia did not succeed so far (I won't say failed, because that sounds far too definitive to me) is certainly a reason for serious contemplation en reconsideration of this proposal. On the other hand, we could learn from what went wrong so far on simple: when starting einfach:, and build a frim community with clear goals and arrangements first. And attract enough willing contributors, of course.
Wouter
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Why?
From: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com Reply-To: Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com,wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:20:58 -0700
I don't think we should build a Simple German Wikipedia, and I think we need to try to gradually phase the Simple English one into nothingness.
Mark
On 15/04/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language. The majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other projects.
If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version should not be used as the reason for creating this.
Angela Administrator of the Simple English Wikipedia
The fact that the Simple English wikipedia did not succeed so far (I
won't
say failed, because that sounds far too definitive to me) is certainly a reason for serious contemplation en reconsideration of this proposal. On
the
other hand, we could learn from what went wrong so far on simple: when starting einfach:, and build a frim community with clear goals and arrangements first. And attract enough willing contributors, of course.
Wouter
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I am currently a very eager learner of German, so of course I wish that such a thing existed. But I agree with Angela that the existence of simple English wikipedia isn't really a firm argument for the creation of the same thing in German, for all the reasons that she gave.
(Additionally, it is very likely that the demand by end users for a simple English wikipedia is much higher than the demand for simple German, simply because so many more people are learning English than German at any given moment in time.)
I also think it's important to keep very clear that simple German for adult language learners is a very very different thing from German for children. The problems faced by the two groups are quite different.
The original poster was interested primarily in a wikipedia in German for children. This raises a whole bunch of very interesting questions, I think, and we should not confuse those questions with the questions of simple language for adult learners.
I have no advice on whether such a thing should be pursued or where or how. :-)
--Jibo
Angela wrote:
On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
… the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language. The majority of articles are stubs and there has been little interest in extending them. Very little, if any, community has ever formed at the site. Suggesting the Simple English wiki be closed seems a better option to me than using its existence to justify the creation of other projects.
If enough people believe the Simple German one can work, then that could be trialed, but the existence of the failing English version should not be used as the reason for creating this.
I agree with this, having occasionally peered over at simple: but never really having gotten interested in it enough to edit significantly.
I do think the idea is admirable, but perhaps some of the same goals could be accomplished by making the existing Wikipedias somewhat easier to read. I've run across quite a few en: articles that use diction not in common use since the 19th century (and I don't just mean the ones imported from EB1911). That has a certain charm, but more people being able to read our encyclopedia has greater benefits, IMO.
I don't necessarily mean to reduce the writing level to that of a typical American newspaper (which are purposely targetted to a 7th-to-8th-grade level to maximize the potential audience), but I think there is some reasonable middle ground.
-Mark
Angela wrote:
On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
… the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language.
Exactly. I think naming is everything. "Simple English", to me, sounds silly, and an invitation to participate in it can even be regarded as slightly condescending. If it had instead been called "Children's Wikipedia", I would be much more willing to participate.
Unfortunately, "Children's Wikipedia" itself is ambiguous: Does it mean the content is aimed at children, or it is intended to allow children to collaborate? I fear the term "Children's Wikipedia" would attract more child contributors, which in turn might discourage adult editors because the social dynamics are vastly different (and probably "too childish" for most grown-ups).
These are just some thoughts; this is not intended to imply that I am advocating (or opposing) the creation or deletion of any Wikipedias or any other projects.
Timwi
Exactly. I think naming is everything. "Simple English", to me, sounds silly, and an invitation to participate in it can even be regarded as slightly condescending. If it had instead been called "Children's Wikipedia", I would be much more willing to participate.
On the Requests site, someone dropped a similar critical note, proposing a Wikijunior project. Moreover, this was the original aim of the proposer, wasn't it? What about trying to reanimate the simple-project by mutation simple.wikipedia.org into en.wikijunior.org and creating a website de.wikijunior.org rather than einfach.wikipedia.org?
I propose that we try to raise these two wikijunior projects to adulthood first, since too many projects at once will lead to a certain chaos. On the other hand, it's just children who are usually unable to read another language than their native one, of course.
Wouter
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Timwi wrote:
Unfortunately, "Children's Wikipedia" itself is ambiguous: Does it mean the content is aimed at children, or it is intended to allow children to collaborate? I fear the term "Children's Wikipedia" would attract more child contributors, which in turn might discourage adult editors because the social dynamics are vastly different (and probably "too childish" for most grown-ups).
These are just some thoughts; this is not intended to imply that I am advocating (or opposing) the creation or deletion of any Wikipedias or any other projects.
If you take a peek into Wikien-l and see the endless debate raging about such things as [[autofellatio]] images, I think you will agree with me that having a "children's wikipedia" will tend to create impossible flame wars about the suitability of some types of content for children.
I have no particular point of view about this, I am only making an observation.
- --Jimbo
Timwi, depending on your definition of a child, this has already happened.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedians_by_age
If you look there, you'll find that already, the majority of Wikipedians were born between 1977 and 1993. Obviously if you consider 18 to be the limit of adulthood, all those on the list born after 1985-1986 are "children", and if you consider 21 to be the limit of adulthood, that would make it 1982-1983, and if you consider it 30 (which some do), it would be 1974-1975.
Either way, that leaves you with a great deal of Wikipedians.
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, Kzhr (prominent Wikipedian and sysop from ja:), and Ilyanep are all examples of Wikipedians you might know who are under 18 - Ævar is IIRC 16, Kzhr is 15 I think, and Ilyanep is 13. (I myself am 15, 16 in August).
The average age of Wikipedians in general iirc is 22 or so. That's because our huge young crowd is balanced out a bit by 30- and 40-somethings.
Mark
On 17/04/05, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
Angela wrote:
On 4/15/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
… the existance of a Simple English wikipedia justifies a Simple German wikipedia anyway.
That might be the case if the Simple English Wikipedia had been a success, but, in my opinion, it has not. The project still has very unclear goals, and few guidelines about which level editors should be writing at. It is not even clear whether the wiki is meant for children or learners of English as an additional language.
Exactly. I think naming is everything. "Simple English", to me, sounds silly, and an invitation to participate in it can even be regarded as slightly condescending. If it had instead been called "Children's Wikipedia", I would be much more willing to participate.
Unfortunately, "Children's Wikipedia" itself is ambiguous: Does it mean the content is aimed at children, or it is intended to allow children to collaborate? I fear the term "Children's Wikipedia" would attract more child contributors, which in turn might discourage adult editors because the social dynamics are vastly different (and probably "too childish" for most grown-ups).
These are just some thoughts; this is not intended to imply that I am advocating (or opposing) the creation or deletion of any Wikipedias or any other projects.
Timwi
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
If you look there, you'll find that already, the majority of Wikipedians were born between 1977 and 1993. Obviously if you consider 18 to be the limit of adulthood, all those on the list born after 1985-1986 are "children", and if you consider 21 to be the limit of adulthood, that would make it 1982-1983, and if you consider it 30 (which some do), it would be 1974-1975.
Either way, that leaves you with a great deal of Wikipedians.
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, Kzhr (prominent Wikipedian and sysop from ja:), and Ilyanep are all examples of Wikipedians you might know who are under 18 - Ævar is IIRC 16, Kzhr is 15 I think, and Ilyanep is 13. (I myself am 15, 16 in August).
You're right. But all of you must be extremely intelligent. AEvar is a thousand times more fluent in English than I am, despite of his Icelandicity (yes, this is a neologism...). All of you reason like adults. Pentiumforever probably intended the modal, representative children, not adolescent prodigies.
Wouter
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Oh. Sorry. But you were already involved in Wikipedia when you were 18 and even younger, no?
Mark
On 18/04/05, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason avarab@gmail.com wrote:
are under 18 - Ævar is IIRC 16, Kzhr is 15 I think, and Ilyanep is 13. (I myself am 15, 16 in August).
I'm 19.
Hi Sabine,
I am afraid I sent a message, meant for the mailing list, just to you, by mistake. Could you forward it?
Thanks in advance!
Wouter
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And this was certainly the opposite fault! Sorry for messing over your mailboxes!
From: "Wouter Steenbeek" musiqolog@hotmail.com Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: Error: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Idea for a new Wikipedia Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:23:49 +0200
Hi Sabine,
I am afraid I sent a message, meant for the mailing list, just to you, by mistake. Could you forward it?
Thanks in advance!
Wouter
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