In Berlin, I was chatting with Tim Pritlove about the annual Choas Communication Congress which is held in Berlin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress
This event attracts 2,500 and 3,500 participants (according to Wikipedia) and a central feature is the "hack center" which gives access to around 600 people for whatever.
Not described in the Wikipedia article, but attested to by Tim Pritlove, it's a rocking good time.
So, I had this idea for something we could do as a part of a drive towards 1.0. We could get permission from a library or libraries in some densely populated centers around the world to gain admission during a holiday or weekend that they would normally be closed. We'd set up a wireless broadband network and bring together as many people as possible to work together day and night in a fun atmosphere to fact check articles and process them for final publication in a CD-ROM, with an eye towards print as well of course.
Since we'd be talking about en for this first round, logical cities for this would be New York and London, with L.A. and Chicago and Sydney also possible, if there are enough people interested to make that happen.
We'd strive to have as many people as possible in one location, and to attract maximum media attention to what we're doing. So the selection of a location would involve deliberations about keeping the cost low, both travel costs and hotel costs for participants travelling some distance.
For example, although this is too soon, the New York Public Library will be closed September 4 through September 6, for "Labor Day Weekend". There are many other holidays like that one which would provide a similar opportunity.
Imagine (go with me on this fantasy here) 1000 people working around the clock with timeouts just to sleep and eat, for 3 full days, to fact check, copyedit, and approve as many articles as possible.
--Jimbo
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales schrieb:
In Berlin, I was chatting with Tim Pritlove about the annual Choas Communication Congress which is held in Berlin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Communication_Congress
This event attracts 2,500 and 3,500 participants (according to Wikipedia) and a central feature is the "hack center" which gives access to around 600 people for whatever.
Not described in the Wikipedia article, but attested to by Tim Pritlove, it's a rocking good time.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_auf_dem_21C3
I wrote a short English abstract for this site. Feel free to take part in the discussion (English/German/whatever).
Mathias
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales schrieb:
We'd strive to have as many people as possible in one location, and to attract maximum media attention to what we're doing. So the selection of a location would involve deliberations about keeping the cost low, both travel costs and hotel costs for participants travelling some distance.
July 19 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Wissenswochenende (including English abstract)
(historic discussions:) June 6 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Qualit%E4tsoffensive/Aa/Session
April 7 http://de.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Benutzer:Mathias_Schindler/DreiJa...
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales <jwales@...> writes: [cut]
So, I had this idea for something we could do as a part of a drive towards 1.0. We could get permission from a library or libraries in some densely populated centers around the world to gain admission during a holiday or weekend that they would normally be closed. We'd set up a wireless broadband network and bring together as many people as possible to work together day and night in a fun atmosphere to fact check articles and process them for final publication in a CD-ROM, with an eye towards print as well of course.
This can be fun and good for PR and community building but its usefulness is doubtful in the current situation.
Verifying information is one thing. Making sure it is stored correctly and stays correctly is something else.
Now there is no system to indicate that the information in a article is verified. And also none to make sure that correct, verified information is not changed at some point.
Off course that is the concept of Wikipedia that the community is watching the edits and so makes sure that there is no nonsense are included.
But the point of verifying information is to make sure the information is correct. When you put the verifyed information free again in the wild-wiki you have increased the general likelihood that the information is correct but you do not get really a trustworthy encyclopedia.
Also the idea of voting for articles will only increase the general quality of Wikipedia but not really get trustworthy articles.
How to do it i do not know. But making a big efford in verifying seems a waste of work in the current setup.
I do have a idea for a temporary solution.
Create a "Fact Sheet"-option. A option to attach a special page the contains verifyed basic information to a article. It should be in a form format. Whit a drop-down menu where you select the profile of the subject and fields for specific indisputable facts.
This should be done by the person who has done the verification of the information. Because it should be absolute correct information and to guaranty that the information stays correct modifying should only be possible by the original verificator. If not there is no point of creating the fact sheet.
That verificator (senior-Wikipedians only?) will connect his good name and reputation to the information in the fact sheet.
Off course there can always be a discussion about it and somebody should be abel to overrule the verificator but that should be a rare exception.
Whit this system you still do not have a system for getting a realy trustworthy article but you have at least the possibility for puting the most basic information save so you can check easy something like of it is true that the Zeppelin Hindenburg exploded on 6 may 1937. It is a step to a verified wikipedia.
Changing the software for this is a lot of work. But looking up information because you need to be sure also.
--- [[wikipedia:nl:gebruiker:walter]]
Walter Vermeir wrote:
Now there is no system to indicate that the information in a article is verified. And also none to make sure that correct, verified information is not changed at some point.
Right, that's why I had this idea (or stole it from Matthias Schindler and the German community, it seems! Great minds think alike!) as being in conjunction with whatever we work out as an approval process for a "1.0" stable release.
We've known for a long time that while the average quality of wikipedia articles is very high, and the wide-open editing process is integral to that, there is also a need for something we can offer to people that meets a specific test of reliability for _all_ articles in the stable set, not just "on average".
But I totally agree with you -- until we have a process whereby facts that are checked stay checked :-), big sessions of fact checking and copy editing aren't really going to be so useful.
--Jimbo
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:48:29 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
So, I had this idea for something we could do as a part of a drive towards 1.0. We could get permission from a library or libraries in some densely populated centers around the world to gain admission during a holiday or weekend that they would normally be closed. We'd set up a wireless broadband network and bring together as many people as possible to work together day and night in a fun atmosphere to fact check articles and process them for final publication in a CD-ROM, with an eye towards print as well of course.
I like the idea of having the libraries to ourselves, and of symbolically being there when they would otherwise be closed. However, there would still have to be library staff, guards, etc. in the library 24/7 during this time -- a donation by the library, perhaps, but a significant one. ( 3 staff @ $14/hr for 72 hrs : $3k )
To improve our chances of having libraries agree, it would be nice to start trying libraries where many librarians are already Wikipedians or fans, and would be willing to donate some of their time. It might also help to use libraries that already have a wireless network set up...
Imagine (go with me on this fantasy here) 1000 people working around the clock with timeouts just to sleep and eat, for 3 full days, to fact check, copyedit, and approve as many articles as possible.
I like this fantasy, and don't think it has to be linked to a print edition -- as a general validation exercise, it has great appeal. However, having a mass of people converge on a library will inevitably involve some extra wear and tear; it might help to address that in any proposal to a library...
~sj~
I love the idea of having a weekend where people get together to finalize the articles for a print edition. I sent off a few emails to libraries in Birmingham (Birmingham being a more central location than London, and considerably cheaper) just to get an idea of whether it would be possible and the only response I've had so far was not positive. The email below was from the University of Birmingham. Perhaps finding libraries that have large rooms available that we could use during normal library opening hours would be better than hoping to have whole libraries to ourselves?
On enquiry to a more senior member of staff the reply is that we would not be able to provide the facilities for this. This building is open all days except Sundays and our computing facilities are restricted for use by members of the University of Birmingham. If we were to open the building for you we would need to employ both security and IT staff to support you and this would be very difficult. Please check the University home page wwww.bham.ac.uk for details of conference facilities if this could be of help.
Angela.
Universities tend to be a little more standoffish about this sort of thing; faculty and students are focused on their studies, and the unwashed masses of the general public 1/2 :-) are an unwelcome distraction.
I'd think public libraries would be more enthusiastic, WP being more in line with their mission. But somebody will likely have to know somebody, either in the library administration, or alternatively, at the local newspaper, heh-heh, who might like this kind of an oddball story ("Amateur scholars take on Britannica at the local branch"), and could help grease the skids with the librarians, for whom the extra trouble is worth a mention in the paper.
Another way to do it is a la Critical Mass - everybody just show up and overrun the library. That will get some publicity too. :-)
Stan
Angela_ wrote:
I love the idea of having a weekend where people get together to finalize the articles for a print edition. I sent off a few emails to libraries in Birmingham (Birmingham being a more central location than London, and considerably cheaper) just to get an idea of whether it would be possible and the only response I've had so far was not positive. The email below was from the University of Birmingham. Perhaps finding libraries that have large rooms available that we could use during normal library opening hours would be better than hoping to have whole libraries to ourselves?
On enquiry to a more senior member of staff the reply is that we would not be able to provide the facilities for this. This building is open all days except Sundays and our computing facilities are restricted for use by members of the University of Birmingham. If we were to open the building for you we would need to employ both security and IT staff to support you and this would be very difficult. Please check the University home page wwww.bham.ac.uk for details of conference facilities if this could be of help.
Stan Shebs wrote:
Another way to do it is a la Critical Mass - everybody just show up and overrun the library. That will get some publicity too. :-)
Well, I wouldn't recommend that, exactly. :-) But it might be sensible to drop the idea of doing it when the library would otherwise be closed, since that seemed to be the primary "red flag" of objection.
My guess is that if a library is open to the public, they can't really say "no" to a ton of people showing up during regular business hours, but of course we're kind and thoughtful wikilove people, so we would prefer to schedule this with the library in advance so that they can be sure to have "all hands on deck", as well as possibly providing us with some space.
I do have to confess, though, some warm feelings towards the idea of just surprising them, a la Critical Mass or some freeform Flash mob. If we were going to do that, I'd propose that we agree to behave very quietly but very strangely, with secret hand signals (and ENCRYPTED IRC CHAT ROOMS!).
--Jimbo
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
Stan Shebs wrote:
Another way to do it is a la Critical Mass - everybody just show up and overrun the library. That will get some publicity too. :-)
Well, I wouldn't recommend that, exactly. :-) But it might be sensible to drop the idea of doing it when the library would otherwise be closed, since that seemed to be the primary "red flag" of objection.
My guess is that if a library is open to the public, they can't really say "no" to a ton of people showing up during regular business hours, but of course we're kind and thoughtful wikilove people, so we would prefer to schedule this with the library in advance so that they can be sure to have "all hands on deck", as well as possibly providing us with some space.
Thinking about it some more (instead of working, ahem), it might work better to start small - organize as regular sessions with 10-20 people, which requires nothing from the library, but still gives you synergy from the f2f discussion. If the idea catches on and the sessions get larger, the librarians will by then be familiar with WP and how the sessions work (by the complete unshelving of the reference section every Tuesday night, if nothing else :-) ), and will likely come up with their own ideas of how to be of assistance.
There could be some interesting specializations with this; for instance, one person to run to the stacks and find the books with the needed factoids, another to check articles against books, and a third to type in the bibliographical details about the books used. Our computerphobic friends might especially appreciate the opportunity to participate without needing to be a speed typist.
Stan
Stan Shebs shebs@apple.com writes:
Thinking about it some more (instead of working, ahem), it might work better to start small - organize as regular sessions with 10-20 people, which requires nothing from the library, but still gives you synergy from the f2f discussion.
Yes, this has some value in itself.
There could be some interesting specializations with this; for instance, one person to run to the stacks and find the books with the needed factoids, another to check articles against books, and a third to type in the bibliographical details about the books used.
Strictly spoken, the third stage isn't required. You can fetch the book records from libraries as the LoC using Z39.50 software. Checkput the YAZ toolkit provided by http://www.Indexdata.dk (it already comes with some GNU/Linux distribution).
An example session goes as follows:
yaz-client Z> marccharset auto Z> open z3950.loc.gov:7090/voyager Z> find @and @attr 1=4 code @attr 1=1003 lessig Z> show
001 11950921 005 20030619102947.0 008 000323s1999 nyua b 001 0 eng d 906 $a 7 $b cbc $c copycat $d 1 $e ncip $f 20 $g y-gencatlg 925 0 $a acquire $b 2 shelf copies $x policy default 955 $a CAD uf18 03-23-00; 1 copy to CIP uf18 03-23-00 955 $a HAND CARRY to HLCD pb11 03-31-00; lh08 to subj. 04-06-00; lf14 HLCD/Rom subj. to SL 04-06-00 12:50 p.m.; lj05 04-06-00 to Dewey; aa11 04-10-00 $a ld11 2001-07-02 cp2 to BCCD 010 $a 00271772 035 $a (OCoLC)ocm42860053 040 $a GWL $c GWL $d DPL $d DLC 042 $a lccopycat 020 $a 046503912X 050 00 $a K564.C6 $b L47 1999 082 00 $a 303.48/33 $2 21 100 1 $a Lessig, Lawrence. 245 10 $a Code and other laws of cyberspace / $c Lawrence Lessig. 246 30 $a Code 260 $a New York : $b Basic Books, $c c1999. 300 $a xii, 297 p. : $b ill. ; $c 25 cm. 504 $a Includes bibliographical references (p. [241]-288) and index. 650 0 $a Information superhighway $x Law and legislation. 650 0 $a Computers $x Law and legislation. 650 0 $a Electronic commerce $x Law and legislation. 650 0 $a Freedom of information. 650 0 $a Privacy, Right of.
The more readable XML format is possible as well.
And then when copyright issues are cleared we can store the records in a database; a specialized system is idzebra also provided by IndexData: http://www.indexdata.dk/zebra/ . Please, make use of such a standardized system; don't try to invent "something better" ...
Our computerphobic friends might especially appreciate the opportunity to participate without needing to be a speed typist.
:-)
Stan Shebs wrote:
Universities tend to be a little more standoffish about this sort of thing; faculty and students are focused on their studies, and the unwashed masses of the general public 1/2 :-) are an unwelcome distraction.
Would it help if one of the Wikipedians is a student of the University in question, and the session is done this summer before the beginning of the next term?
If so, then August/September in Cambridge would be a possibility. :-)
Timwi
Timwi wrote:
Would it help if one of the Wikipedians is a student of the University in question, and the session is done this summer before the beginning of the next term?
If so, then August/September in Cambridge would be a possibility. :-)
I was really thinking of next summer, because I don't think we can reasonably expect to have an article approval process in place until then.
--Jimbo
Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Would it help if one of the Wikipedians is a student of the University in question, and the session is done this summer before the beginning of the next term?
If so, then August/September in Cambridge would be a possibility. :-)
I was really thinking of next summer, because I don't think we can reasonably expect to have an article approval process in place until then.
Well, maybe I skimmed over this whole proposal and its thread too much, but I thought in this thread we're talking about Wikipedians visiting a library to collect information to beef up some articles. As far as I can see, they can do this without an approval process. The articles beefed up this way can still be approved a year later, if the process is in place by then. It is also still possible to organise another WikiJamSession a year later.
But then again, it was just a suggestion.
Timwi
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:12:06 +0100, Timwi timwi@gmx.net wrote:
Well, maybe I skimmed over this whole proposal and its thread too much, but I thought in this thread we're talking about Wikipedians visiting a library to collect information to beef up some articles. As far as I can see, they can do this without an approval process. The articles beefed up this way can still be approved a year later, if the process is in place by then. It is also still possible to organise another WikiJamSession a year later.
I agree a WikiJamSession a year earlier just to work on articles rather than to approve them would be a good idea. It would help with the planning for the session the following year, and make sure that for the final print drive, we know what we're doing as we'd have found out a year earlier how the event went and how it could be improved, making the final drive to print go more smoothly. A WikiJamSession this summer might also be a good place to start advertising the drive to 1.0, which will happening over the course of the next year, and get people motivated to work on it.
Angela.
Angela_ wrote:
I agree a WikiJamSession a year earlier just to work on articles rather than to approve them would be a good idea.
Well, that's not what I originally had in mind, but what the heck, it sounds fun!
We can discuss this in Boston as well as here on the list, and maybe we can do something simultaneously in the UK and US (and other places, too, of course!)
The more people who can come, the better, part of the point is to get a critical mass of a large enough group of people to make it media-interesting.
--Jimbo
Timwi wrote:
Stan Shebs wrote:
Universities tend to be a little more standoffish about this sort of thing; faculty and students are focused on their studies, and the unwashed masses of the general public 1/2 :-) are an unwelcome distraction.
Would it help if one of the Wikipedians is a student of the University in question, and the session is done this summer before the beginning of the next term?
If said student was the child of a top donor, perhaps. :-) Not to be too cynical, but students are pretty low in the academic hierarchy. I think it would take a dean or full professor who was a WP enthusiast to have sufficient pull to arrange to commandeer part of the university's library - we have some academics on this list, perhaps they could weigh in on what they think they could arrange at their own institutions.
Stan
Stan Shebs wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Stan Shebs wrote:
Universities tend to be a little more standoffish about this sort of thing; faculty and students are focused on their studies, and the unwashed masses of the general public 1/2 :-) are an unwelcome distraction.
Would it help if one of the Wikipedians is a student of the University in question, and the session is done this summer before the beginning of the next term?
If said student was the child of a top donor, perhaps. :-) Not to be too cynical, but students are pretty low in the academic hierarchy. I think it would take a dean or full professor who was a WP enthusiast to have sufficient pull to arrange to commandeer part of the university's library - we have some academics on this list, perhaps they could weigh in on what they think they could arrange at their own institutions.
I see. Well, I suppose I wasn't actually thinking of trying to arrange anything with the library beforehand. The [[Cambridge University Library]] is huge -- I'm pretty sure a few hundred unexpected visitors won't disrupt everyday happenings enough to be thrown out. Especially not at this time of year, before the beginning of the next term, where the library is as good as empty. That's why I mentioned that.
Timwi
Angela_ wrote:
I love the idea of having a weekend where people get together to finalize the articles for a print edition. I sent off a few emails to libraries in Birmingham (Birmingham being a more central location than London, and considerably cheaper) just to get an idea of whether it would be possible and the only response I've had so far was not positive. The email below was from the University of Birmingham. Perhaps finding libraries that have large rooms available that we could use during normal library opening hours would be better than hoping to have whole libraries to ourselves?
If we were looking for a WikiJam in Britain, I concur that Birmingham would be an excellent location.
In fact, if we broaden our location beyond libraries a little, Birmingham has perhaps the perfect location - the National Exhibition Centre - it is the largest such conference centre in Europe and can accommodate tens, 100s, 1000s or 10000s of people as we require. Of course internet facilities of the type we would want could be available.
It is virtually on top of [[Birmingham international railway station]], which is well connected to the rest of the country.
It is also virtually on top of the centre of the country's motorway (freeway) network.
It is also virtually on top of [[Birmingham international airport]], which is now well-connected to the rest of the country, Europe and the eastside of the States.
Because it is a massive exhibition centre it has lots of relevatively affordable accommodation if you go at the right time (those of you who've been to Vegas will know how wildly accommodation prices can vary in conference season). In any case it would be way way less (less than half) of London.
Admittedly there would be hurdles in terms of getting a good deal in return for good publicity from the Centre compared with a friendly libary.... but given Angela's comments, and because of its advantages, it is certainly worth bearing in mind.
Pete/Pcb21 (originally from the area :)
Pete/Pcb21 wrote:
In fact, if we broaden our location beyond libraries a little, Birmingham has perhaps the perfect location - the National Exhibition Centre - it is the largest such conference centre in Europe and can accommodate tens, 100s, 1000s or 10000s of people as we require. Of course internet facilities of the type we would want could be available.
But presumably we'll need books. Lots of books. It seems hard to do this anywhere other than a library.
--Jimbo
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:48:29 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales jwales@wikia.com wrote:
So, I had this idea for something we could do as a part of a drive towards 1.0. We could get permission from a library or libraries in some densely populated centers around the world to gain admission during a holiday or weekend that they would normally be closed. We'd set up a wireless broadband network and bring together as many people as possible to work together day and night in a fun atmosphere to fact check articles and process them for final publication in a CD-ROM, with an eye towards print as well of course.
After the negative response from Birmingham University Library, there was some good news from Birmingham Central Library who are interested in hosting such an event:
Sounds fascinating, and I'd like us to be involved. I'm sure we can come to some arrangement with you, precisely what might depend on how many people, how much space, what you want, time of year etc. For example we have large meeting rooms, which could be used, or we could close off an area of the library rather than going for a closed day (since these are only Sundays); the cost would depend on the solution, but we wouldn't be expensive! Catering can be arranged too, depending on how we structure the sessions. Do you want to give me a call, but you can take it as a yes in principle?
As was suggested on the mailing list previously, we could hold a number of smaller sessions for Wikipedians to improve articles before the final drive to 1.0 next summer. I've started a page where people can arrange these meet-ups at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_Weekend. Please see that page to sign up for the UK meeting, or to arrange meetings in other locations.
Whilst the idea was initially related to the print version of the English Wikipedia, it may increase media awareness if the event was being held simultaneously in non-English speaking countries as well. I think this could be beneficial even for those Wikipedias not planning a print edition in the near future. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Editing_Weekend.
Angela.
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