Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret? * the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora, * the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere, * the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives), * the information about the list leaked on some of the Wikipedia talk pages.
There was a hot dispute concerning the problem on the official Polish Wikipedia mailing list. However, there was no clear result. A concrete proposal to discuss the issue in a narrow circle and achieve a compromise of some kind made by [[:pl:User:Ency]] was more or less ignored by the creators and supporters of the list.
My concern with regard to the issue is that this kind of initiative spoils to high extent the open character of the Wikipedia community and therefore the mailing list should be closed or the admins should be obliged to sign off from the list. Another possibility is to just make the list open for the whole community in some way. However, the effective result of the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia mailing list (that means that the list still exists) stays in contradiction with my understanding of the openness of the Wikipedia projects. That's why I raise this issue here in hope that I'll hear something that will allow me to better understand the situation and act appropriately.
Bests, Alx-pl
There are many private, semi-private and secret lists in which wikimedians make decisions with eachother without ever telling anyone or explaining. Openness has gone overboard a very long time ago. Most things you read on the public lists have been discussed privately long before an outsider found out about them.
It is the hard truth. The foundation nor any of the projects are 100% open ....... and should they be in some cases?
Waerth/Walter
Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
- the information about the list leaked on some of the Wikipedia talk pages.
There was a hot dispute concerning the problem on the official Polish Wikipedia mailing list. However, there was no clear result. A concrete proposal to discuss the issue in a narrow circle and achieve a compromise of some kind made by [[:pl:User:Ency]] was more or less ignored by the creators and supporters of the list.
My concern with regard to the issue is that this kind of initiative spoils to high extent the open character of the Wikipedia community and therefore the mailing list should be closed or the admins should be obliged to sign off from the list. Another possibility is to just make the list open for the whole community in some way. However, the effective result of the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia mailing list (that means that the list still exists) stays in contradiction with my understanding of the openness of the Wikipedia projects. That's why I raise this issue here in hope that I'll hear something that will allow me to better understand the situation and act appropriately.
Bests, Alx-pl
Walter van Kalken wrote:
There are many private, semi-private and secret lists in which wikimedians make decisions with eachother without ever telling anyone or explaining. Openness has gone overboard a very long time ago. Most things you read on the public lists have been discussed privately long before an outsider found out about them.
It is the hard truth. The foundation nor any of the projects are 100% open ....... and should they be in some cases?
I think it is quite natural that people make lists of this kind on one or another occasion. I find it even necessary in some circumstances. Some of the English Wikipedia guidelines suggest even that this is a reasonable thing to do (for instance in case of a conflict). The question is only if this kind of communication channel, namely non-public Wikipedia admin list, is OK.
Groeten, Alx-pl
On 5/20/06, Aleksy Schubert alx@cs.ru.nl wrote:
Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
Why? What is meant to be discussed on that mailing list that cannot be open at least to all subscribers?
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
On 5/20/06, Aleksy Schubert alx@cs.ru.nl wrote:
Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
Why? What is meant to be discussed on that mailing list that cannot be open at least to all subscribers?
In the last item I meant Wikipedia administrators, not the mailing list administrators.
Bests, Alx
Hoi, On the Dutch Wikipedia there has been a mailinglist for admins only for a VERY long time. The reason why it was started was that many public quarrels on nl.wikipedia itself detracted from what Wikipedia was about. As much as anything the list proved to be a great way of letting excess heat go out of issues.
It is not that is should be secret, it is treated as confidential because its content can be less diplomatic at times.
When you look at where information comes from, statistically the largest part comes from a smallish group. It is also fair to say that the admins pretty much make up this smallish group. In essence it is helpful; it does not mean that the arguments do not have to be put forward publicly and a vote is not done in public but the static around an issue is less.
Some people said it was a cabal, they were invited to run for admin, many did and became satisfied that it was not only to find that they are now accused of being part of this in-crowd.. They are :)
Thanks, GerardM
On 5/20/06, Erik Moeller eloquence@gmail.com wrote:
On 5/20/06, Aleksy Schubert alx@cs.ru.nl wrote:
Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
Why? What is meant to be discussed on that mailing list that cannot be open at least to all subscribers?
Erik _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
There is also an IRC channel for en.wikipedia admins.
Yes, where they undoubtedly discuss their evil schemes for world domination.
Mark
On 20/05/06, Paweł Dembowski fallout@lexx.eu.org wrote:
There is also an IRC channel for en.wikipedia admins.
-- Ausir Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia http://pl.wikipedia.org
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Paweł Dembowski wrote:
There is also an IRC channel for en.wikipedia admins.
There are at least two non-en-admins in it quite regularly.
Alphax (Wikipedia email) wrote:
Paweł Dembowski wrote:
There is also an IRC channel for en.wikipedia admins.
There are at least two non-en-admins in it quite regularly.
I know of the existance of at least 3 secret IRC channels for subgroups of wikimedians. For all three I was invited, I have joined one. It is unfortunately but true. Many groups select themselves and the people they want to be with. It is like political party forming. Is it a good thing? I do not know. Is it a human nature thing ...... yes certainly!
There are probably many channels and mailinglists around and on all there will be discussing about fellow wikipedians, with reputations being broken and careers being made. I am sometimes surprised what bullshit I here about my own person making the rounds..
As wikimedia has grown a lot of politics is going on on the background. X hates Y behind his/her back. Y hates X back, but publically they will appear to be buddies. There is so much of this kind of shit going on, it is astonishing and repulsive. Offcourse when you confront people with it in public ..... like I have a habit of doing sometimes it is not welcomed. Which is kinda one of the reasons I am currently in paria status at this moment I guess. You better get used to this. This is how things work in big organisations like the foundation is becoming. Even all the people who reacted surprised and even condemning in this thread are known to me as people who tried to tell me their opinion of other wikimedians behind their backs. There are no saints within the wikimedia community no matter how nice they write. The nicer and more eloquent the typed message the more forked the fingers typing them. This is why I hate political correctness it creates this kind of incrowds gossipcircuits. I prefer my own style more. Direct. Not behind peoples backs even though I insult/shock people with it from time to time. Then again ..... I am no saint either.
Walter/Waerth
Here is the summary of the current information in the thread: 1. different private lists are used here and there among various groups of wikipedians and that's natural, 2. private (but publicly advertised) fora for sysops are used in some Wikipedia communities, 3. there is usually some kind of resistance against such sysop communication channels as they can lead to elite or hierarchy that impairs the open nature of Wikipedia, 4. the rationale behind such fora is that - they gather the users who at the same time are rational and contribute most to the project, - they protect discussions from being distracted by irresponsible users, 5. the fora have open nature as everybody can apply to become an admin and sometimes non-admins get the access to them.
To be honest, I know the price of openness as I took part in a few NPOV resolution actions both on the Polish and the English Wikipedia. I agree that the price for the openness is really high in terms of time, personal attacks to endure, repeated arguments etc. That's why I understand the incentive to create such mailing lists.
I agree also that Wikipedia must evolve into a more elitist system. Still, I don't understand what are the principles of this evolution and where the borders of the elite power are. In particular, I don't understand what the countermeasures for the elitist nature of such sysop fora are to ensure the open nature of the project. I don't buy the arguments that * everybody can become a member of the elite, because this is a false statement (even for those born before 1976), * the elite is wide enough, because no one presented a criterion for "wide enough" elites saying nothing about a method to verify that the circle of sysops adheres to that in a reasonable extent, * and the rest of arguments amounts to bold declarations that members of the elite don't have this kind of problems. I don't buy them because both the history of the real world shows that such structures degenerate with time.
One more remark, I wouldn't dare to start the thread without seeing the following points on the Jimbo's Statement of principles page: 2. Newcomers are always to be welcomed. There must be no cabal, there must be no elites, there must be no hierarchy or structure which gets in the way of this openness to newcomers. [...] 6. The mailing list will remain open, well-advertised, and will be regarded as the place for meta-discussions about the nature of Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Jimbo_Wales/Statement_of_prin...
Bests Alx-pl
Aleksy Schubert wrote:
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
- the information about the list leaked on some of the Wikipedia talk pages.
This seems pretty problematic to me. The point of adminship is to grant certain technical abilities to users who are unlikely to abuse them. This is mainly a practical matter---certain abilities, such as moving, protecting, and deleting pages, are too disruptive to allow completely uncontrolled access to them.
Administrators are *not* supposed to be an editorial board with managerial control over the project, though, and having a private mailing list sounds like a definite move in that direction.
-Mark
On 5/20/06, Aleksy Schubert alx@cs.ru.nl wrote:
Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
- the information about the list leaked on some of the Wikipedia talk pages.
There was a hot dispute concerning the problem on the official Polish Wikipedia mailing list. However, there was no clear result. A concrete proposal to discuss the issue in a narrow circle and achieve a compromise of some kind made by [[:pl:User:Ency]] was more or less ignored by the creators and supporters of the list.
My concern with regard to the issue is that this kind of initiative spoils to high extent the open character of the Wikipedia community and therefore the mailing list should be closed or the admins should be obliged to sign off from the list. Another possibility is to just make the list open for the whole community in some way. However, the effective result of the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia mailing list (that means that the list still exists) stays in contradiction with my understanding of the openness of the Wikipedia projects. That's why I raise this issue here in hope that I'll hear something that will allow me to better understand the situation and act appropriately.
I think this is rather inaccurate description.
A private list got started and the Wikipedians "trusted" by the list's creators got invited to participate (mostly sysops, because everyone who hasn't been behaving like a troll and wants to be one easily gets a flag).
The list has been advertised many times on #wikipedia-pl, so it's not really "secret".
The new list was started was not because the discussions that take place there require secrecy, but simply because the open mailing list became so full of trolls and flamewars that it's not very useful for discussions, and some people still like the "mailing list" format.
Oh, and I've got the invitation, but I'm not on the list.
Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
On 5/20/06, Aleksy Schubert alx@cs.ru.nl wrote:
Hello all,
Recently it turned out on the Polish Wikipedia that somebody created a secret mailing list for Polish Wikipedia administrators. Why I say the list was secret?
- the information on it was not presented anywhere on the usual public Wikipedia fora,
- the information on the fact that this list is planned has not been announced anywhere,
- the list was private (only admins could read it and had access to its archives),
- the information about the list leaked on some of the Wikipedia talk pages.
There was a hot dispute concerning the problem on the official Polish Wikipedia mailing list. However, there was no clear result. A concrete proposal to discuss the issue in a narrow circle and achieve a compromise of some kind made by [[:pl:User:Ency]] was more or less ignored by the creators and supporters of the list.
My concern with regard to the issue is that this kind of initiative spoils to high extent the open character of the Wikipedia community and therefore the mailing list should be closed or the admins should be obliged to sign off from the list. Another possibility is to just make the list open for the whole community in some way. However, the effective result of the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia mailing list (that means that the list still exists) stays in contradiction with my understanding of the openness of the Wikipedia projects. That's why I raise this issue here in hope that I'll hear something that will allow me to better understand the situation and act appropriately.
I think this is rather inaccurate description.
This is a disadvantage of keeping things secret. Even though one may strongly strive in good will to give an adequate account one goes astray because the facts are *kept secret*.
A private list got started and the Wikipedians "trusted" by the list's creators got invited to participate (mostly sysops,
The first part of the sentence is an undeniable truth. The second is, however, a pure source of unverifiable myths, legends, and speculations. As the list is private, you can say whatever you want about their users and no one outside the list will be able to verify that. I can only try to infer that * probably all the sysops were there, * some of the sysops are there, * some of the sysops signed off from there, * some of the users who could've been perceived by the list creators as "trusted" behave like they were not included in the list, * no person without the sysop flag confirmed publicly her/his being on the list.
because everyone who hasn't been behaving like a troll and wants to be one easily gets a flag).
This is a bit inadequate on your side. You perfectly know that except from troll-like users several POV-pushers were denied the flag (and mixing them with trolls is unfair). You also perfectly know that a few respectable users had problems with getting the sysop flag in the past.
The list has been advertised many times on #wikipedia-pl, so it's not really "secret".
You also know the strength of this kind of advert (as opposed to the advert on the Message board or in the Village pump). I keep on reading the channel every day and I didn't get to know about that before the issue broke out on the mailing list.
The new list was started was not because the discussions that take place there require secrecy, but simply because the open mailing list became so full of trolls and flamewars that it's not very useful for discussions, and some people still like the "mailing list" format.
So no problem with publishing the archives of the list?
Oh, and I've got the invitation, but I'm not on the list.
Bests, Alx-pl
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