On 6 Oct 2004, at 16:03, Rowan Collins wrote: My beef with the "milliard"-convention (and why I think it "breaks" the decimal system) is not its number of zeros. If the "milliard"-convention were only to use: (NB: use a non-proportional font here) milliard 10^9 1,000,000,000 billiard 10^15 1,000,000,000,000,000 trilliard 10^21 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 etc. then hey, that's logical and "kinda decimal". I wouldn't have a problem with that. Likewise, if people were only to use: million 10^6 1,000,000 billion 10^12 1,000,000,000,000 trillion 10^18 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 etc. then I wouldn't have a problem with that either. What '''drives me NUTS''' however is the "traditional" usage, whereby you have: million 10^6 1,000,000 milliard 10^9 1,000,000,000 billion 10^12 1,000,000,000,000 billiard 10^15 1,000,000,000,000,000 trillion 10^18 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 trilliard 10^21 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 etc. -- this effectively uses a "duodecimal" system as it were. ((In [[List_of_numbers#English_names_for_powers_of_10]], this latter system is described as the "Continental European" convention, with the "Traditional British" usage being a much more sane alternative (cf. above).)) Sadly, the said "traditional" (I mean "Continental European") usage is what's in use in in the country I'm now again (temporarily) living in -- Germany. IMHO no sane person could actually settle on such a system. Well, at least in Germany that system is ''unanimously'' used, so thank heaven for small favours! -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com

Multiples of a thousand. As you say, both conventions are mathematically arbitrary. I would, however, like to point out that this "etymology" business is nonsensse. The word "billion" (and the convention thereof) comes to us [English speakers] from French, whose system we [Americans] continue to use despite the fact that France itself switched systems fairly recently in history (and for quite sensible reasons). In short, we have kept the original definition, while Europe has standardized on another. I can't say that I have any problem whatever with that. I'd also like to note that virtually all Americans are completely oblivious to the difference, and to the best of whose knowledge a milliard is some kind of waterfowl. I was no exception, given the fact that my foreign associations have always comprised mostly scientists and academics, who by and large agree with my personal preference: to have a name for each additional placeholder. I was recently somewhat surprised to find that even BBC World Service broadcasts have adopted the "American" convention for numbers, albeit with an occasional parenthetical clarification. That said, a clear divide on the issue obviously remains, although in our particular case the intrinsic problems can be avoided by enumerating large sums. (Of course, this brings up the issue of commas vs. spaces as placeholders, but that's another can of worms.) -- Austin D. Hair <austin(a)austinhair.org> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Callidus http://www.austinhair.org/

Arwel Parry wrote: "Thousand million" sounds a bit odd though. If I saw "thousand million", I would expect to see a footnote explaining why this odd choice of wording was used instead of "billion", or perhaps a wikilink to [[thousand million]] explaining the various terms used for that quantity. -Mark

Pablo Saratxaga wrote: [Sigh] That's what this whole discussion has been about. Which one your particular view on linguistic history prefers is irrelevant (I could make all sorts of arguments about why the English language is illogical in thousands of instances); the point is that in US English "billion" means "a thousand million" unambiguously, whereas in some other dialects of English it doesn't. In US English, a billion is simply a thousand million. Furthermore, it's the only of writing a thousand million that doesn't sound odd. "A thousand million" is the only other correct way ("a milliard" is not US English), and it sounds odd in US English. Thus there should be some explanation of what's going on for the confused reader who is not aware of these differences, such as a hyperlink on [[thousand million]]. -Mark

Is "million, milliard" the sole French usage? Or do you use "million, billion" as well? -- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com On 6 Oct 2004, at 15:32, Anthere wrote: