Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
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Bryan Derksen wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
Yep, much better.
- -- Alphax | /"\ Encrypted Email Preferred | \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613 | X Against HTML email & vCards http://tinyurl.com/cc9up | / \
Alphax wrote:
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Bryan Derksen wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
Yep, much better.
Once again, the disclaimer must be clear about the fact that the user agrees to the use of his personal data by wikimedia.
Something like :`
By editing Wikipedia, unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], you agree that your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]]. If you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], you agree that your edit will be signed with [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]]. In both cases, you agree that these personal data will be used internally and publicly available. Please see our [[wikipedia:privacy policy|privacy policy]].
JBS, Legal Maven on juriwiki-l
On 11/1/05, Jean-Baptiste Soufron jbsoufron@gmail.com wrote:
Once again, the disclaimer must be clear about the fact that the user agrees to the use of his personal data by wikimedia.
Why should such huge message be on every page? I don't see any such message here on gmail (or on any other server I am able to think of), just a link to Privacy Policy. Or, the other way around, if the message is necessary, it would have to be included on _every_ page, not just on edit pages, wouldn't it?
I think a link to privacy policy in the page footer should be enough (IANAL, of course), the warning about publicly displaying the IP address of anonymous contributors is IMHO a bit different case, not a fulfillment of a legal requirement, just a politeness to the contributors.
-- [[cs:User:Mormegil | Petr Kadlec]]
Why not, but a link is not enough. It should be written like :
By editing, you agree with the [[privacy policy]].
Petr Kadlec wrote:
On 11/1/05, Jean-Baptiste Soufron jbsoufron@gmail.com wrote:
Once again, the disclaimer must be clear about the fact that the user agrees to the use of his personal data by wikimedia.
Why should such huge message be on every page? I don't see any such message here on gmail (or on any other server I am able to think of), just a link to Privacy Policy. Or, the other way around, if the message is necessary, it would have to be included on _every_ page, not just on edit pages, wouldn't it?
I think a link to privacy policy in the page footer should be enough (IANAL, of course), the warning about publicly displaying the IP address of anonymous contributors is IMHO a bit different case, not a fulfillment of a legal requirement, just a politeness to the contributors.
It is a legal requirement.
For more information, read my paper about it :
http://soufron.free.fr/soufron-spip/article.php3?id_article=103
2005/10/31, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca:
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
This does not say that IP addresses will also be logged, but not published if one edits while logged in.
-- Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
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Andre Engels wrote:
2005/10/31, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca:
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
This does not say that IP addresses will also be logged, but not published if one edits while logged in.
We can put that information at [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy]]. It's *very* rare that websites don't log your IP; if you want your IP to be hidden you should use an anonymiser.
- -- Alphax | /"\ Encrypted Email Preferred | \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign OpenPGP key ID: 0xF874C613 | X Against HTML email & vCards http://tinyurl.com/cc9up | / \
Will Thailand be the next country Wikipedia gets blocked in? Thailand recently slipped on a mediafreedom list published by a Paris based mediawatchdog from 50 something to 100 something. A slip of 50 places. Thailand now ranks behind Cambodia! On that list.
Thaksin (our beloved despot) said he couldn't believe it as the Thai press was free according to him. Today these 2 messages were in the press:
From:www.2bangkok.com:
*The real harm to country's image http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/01Nov2005_news17.php*
/Bangkok Post/, November 1, 2005 [This is the kind of tough editorial that used to only be in /The Nation/.] /...Proof of that, if any were needed, was supplied by the minister himself in a report by the government's official mouthpiece, Radio Thailand. Mr Suranand, just back from a trip to China, told the radio service he praised the Chinese system of media control extensively, and apparently had not a word to say about the official protection of press freedom in Thailand. Mr Suranand said he was strongly impressed with China's ``state-of-art technology system'' which is used to monitor citizens, control the media and block access to thousands of internet websites which the Chinese find inconveniently democratic, including several in Thailand. According to Mr Suranand, some media ``make problems for society'' and he signed an agreement with China to cooperate on this issue. Mr Suranand made no attempt to defend his country's democratic system and constitutional protection of free speech and press. Instead, he publicly agreed with the statements of his hosts, who represent a dictatorship with no pretence of press freedom. He agreed with the Chinese that the government should ``play a more important role in examining the members of the press who trigger problems to the society''. That seems a good reason to downgrade Thailand's press freedom and harm Thailand's image yet again. The climate of harassment is well known. Last year, police in the South invited reporters to a news conference on the Tak Bai homicides, then locked them in the room and demanded notes, photos and video footage. Mr Thaksin has claimed several times that the press is hurting the image of the country by certain news coverage or commentary. On the contrary, it is clear the government is harming the country's image abroad by creating an environment of badgering that has caused a huge loss of respect for Thai media independence. And it is using state agencies, including security forces, to help...
/From:www.2bangkok.com: /*Thairath */(translation of Thai newspaper articles)/* *After the by-election in four areas and knowing the official vote, the opposition parties are happy that opposition MPs now reach 125. This means they will be able to call no-confidence debates on ministers concerning corruption issues. Meanwhile Thaksin Shinawatra said during his mobile cabinet meeting at Nakornsawan Province that Nakornsawan is the province that trusts TRT and select all TRT MPs so this province will get privileges to help specifically. Provinces that trust TRT less will be helped later in a queue. He said this frankly and revealed to the media what he thought.
/
Will Thailand be the next country Wikipedia gets blocked in? Thailand recently slipped on a mediafreedom list published by a Paris based mediawatchdog from 50 something to 100 something. A slip of 50 places. Thailand now ranks behind Cambodia! On that list.
Thaksin (our beloved despot) said he couldn't believe it as the Thai press was free according to him. Today these 2 messages were in the press:
From:www.2bangkok.com:
*The real harm to country's image http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/01Nov2005_news17.php*
/Bangkok Post/, November 1, 2005 [This is the kind of tough editorial that used to only be in /The Nation/.] /...Proof of that, if any were needed, was supplied by the minister himself in a report by the government's official mouthpiece, Radio Thailand. Mr Suranand, just back from a trip to China, told the radio service he praised the Chinese system of media control extensively, and apparently had not a word to say about the official protection of press freedom in Thailand. Mr Suranand said he was strongly impressed with China's ``state-of-art technology system'' which is used to monitor citizens, control the media and block access to thousands of internet websites which the Chinese find inconveniently democratic, including several in Thailand. According to Mr Suranand, some media ``make problems for society'' and he signed an agreement with China to cooperate on this issue. Mr Suranand made no attempt to defend his country's democratic system and constitutional protection of free speech and press. Instead, he publicly agreed with the statements of his hosts, who represent a dictatorship with no pretence of press freedom. He agreed with the Chinese that the government should ``play a more important role in examining the members of the press who trigger problems to the society''. That seems a good reason to downgrade Thailand's press freedom and harm Thailand's image yet again. The climate of harassment is well known. Last year, police in the South invited reporters to a news conference on the Tak Bai homicides, then locked them in the room and demanded notes, photos and video footage. Mr Thaksin has claimed several times that the press is hurting the image of the country by certain news coverage or commentary. On the contrary, it is clear the government is harming the country's image abroad by creating an environment of badgering that has caused a huge loss of respect for Thai media independence. And it is using state agencies, including security forces, to help...
/From:www.2bangkok.com: /*Thairath */(translation of Thai newspaper articles)/* *After the by-election in four areas and knowing the official vote, the opposition parties are happy that opposition MPs now reach 125. This means they will be able to call no-confidence debates on ministers concerning corruption issues. Meanwhile Thaksin Shinawatra said during his mobile cabinet meeting at Nakornsawan Province that Nakornsawan is the province that trusts TRT and select all TRT MPs so this province will get privileges to help specifically. Provinces that trust TRT less will be helped later in a queue. He said this frankly and revealed to the media what he thought.
/
Andre Engels wrote:
2005/10/31, Bryan Derksen bryan.derksen@shaw.ca:
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
This does not say that IP addresses will also be logged, but not published if one edits while logged in.
Yes, I mentioned that in the second half of my post that you snipped to replace with this comment saying the same thing. :)
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
The thing is, this is factually incorrect. Your IP address *will* be recorded and associated with your edits if you are signed in, and this omits the fact that if you are not logged in, it will be associated with your edits publically. This is the key point of adding this message - to warn people that their IP address will be made public if they edit without being logged in. Omit this, and you may as well not have the warning.
Chris
Chris Jenkinson wrote:
To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Having an edit be signed with your IP number is IMO less threatening than saying we'll show your IP number publically, more of a way of granting attribution for the contributor's fine work than a warning that "we're watching you!". This version does unfortunately omit the point that Wikipedia records the IP address of logged-in users too, but it's not like we can compress every detail of the privacy policy down into just two lines and it should be pretty obvious to anyone who's thinking about this sort of thing so hopefully not a major omission.
The thing is, this is factually incorrect. Your IP address *will* be recorded and associated with your edits if you are signed in, and this omits the fact that if you are not logged in, it will be associated with your edits publically. This is the key point of adding this message - to warn people that their IP address will be made public if they edit without being logged in. Omit this, and you may as well not have the warning.
I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. My proposed wording says "Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'," which explicitly says your IP address _will_ be made public (signatures are public by nature) - it's the whole point of the thing. It doesn't say one way or another whether your IP address will be recorded if you're logged in, so that's not factually incorrect either. I addressed that in my comment.
Bryan Derksen wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. My proposed wording says "Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'," which explicitly says your IP address _will_ be made public (signatures are public by nature)
- it's the whole point of the thing. It doesn't say one way or another
whether your IP address will be recorded if you're logged in, so that's not factually incorrect either. I addressed that in my comment.
It doesn't explicitly say it, it implicitly says it - if you take "signed" to mean publically. I have never been aware of a signature to be public.
Your proposed wording also implies that your IP address will not be "signed" with your edits if you are logged in, which might be true according to your definition of a signature, but your phrasing is ambiguous and confusing.
Chris
Once again, such a disclaimer must clearly state the agreement of the user.
My proposal is :
Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], by editing Wikipedia you agree that your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]]. If you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], by editing Wikipedia you agree that your edit will be signed with [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]]. In both cases, you agree that these personal data will be used internally and publicly available. Please see our [[wikipedia:privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Jean-Baptiste Soufron, juriwiki-l
Chris Jenkinson wrote:
Bryan Derksen wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand your objection. My proposed wording says "Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'," which explicitly says your IP address _will_ be made public (signatures are public by nature) - it's the whole point of the thing. It doesn't say one way or another whether your IP address will be recorded if you're logged in, so that's not factually incorrect either. I addressed that in my comment.
It doesn't explicitly say it, it implicitly says it - if you take "signed" to mean publically. I have never been aware of a signature to be public.
Your proposed wording also implies that your IP address will not be "signed" with your edits if you are logged in, which might be true according to your definition of a signature, but your phrasing is ambiguous and confusing.
Chris _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 10:09 -0800, Bryan Derksen wrote:
Timwi wrote:
Your [[IP address]] will be recorded when you click 'Save'. If you are not [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]], it will be shown publicly. See [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].To make it even less scary, how about:
:Unless you are [[Special:Userlogin|logged in]] your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Is there an advantage to having different messages for logged-in and not-logged-in users?
Logged in: Your edit will be signed with your user name when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
Not logged in: Your edit will be signed with your [[IP address]] when you click 'Save'. See our [[Wikipedia:Privacy policy|privacy policy]].
(Actually, I like Bryan's combined version better than these; but maybe somebody can come up with better wording for separated messages.)
Carl Witty
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org