Erik wrote:
All I see is a row of buttons and a line under it that says "Click a button to see an example for this formatting" - that seems fairly obvious to me.
Of course it does. You wrote it.
Let's judge this feature based on more feedback than just yours.
I'm *not* the only one who had a similar complaint.
I think your arguments smack of techno-elitism, "I learned wiki markup the hard way, so everyone else has to as well!"
No - my arguments are from the perspective of a person who is using the feature for the first time. Hardly techno-elitism.
A developer who engages in a CVS commit war in opposition to the consensus of the other developers due to the fact that he wants to push through a largely untested feature is techno-elitism.
A developer who does not listen to users is techno-elitism.
A developer who thinks that his feature is fine, but it is the users who are are wrong is techno-elitism.
I would have loved to have even such a simple help toolbar when I started using Wikipedia. Yes, wiki markup is simple, but it's good to have learning aids.
Not when that aid looks like something else and causes confusion.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
Dan, we know you don't like it.
I'd appreciate some clear feedback from _other_ users on the _current_ _actual_ behavior of the code, however.
Mostly what I've seen is complaints about the broken behavior in Mozilla and the old 'paste sample text at the end' in various other browsers. Those are definately unacceptable, and Erik's been working with us to make sure that the best experience will be available before this ever goes online on Wikipedia.
In response to the concerns of users and other developers, these huge improvements have been made so far:
* On browsers with no javascript available, a dead useless toolbar is _not_ shown
* On browsers that don't support adding formatting to the selected text, sample code is no longer added willy-nilly to the end of the text.
* The Mozilla "scrolls to top of text area" bug has been reported to the Mozilla dev team, and as a workaround we'll do what we can to avoid triggering the bug (for instance using the version of the code for browsers that don't support formatting the selected text at all).
Erik's not forcing evil buggy code upon the populace, here. We're all working to make the best, most functional, most user-friendly code we can get. Let's please not fight over something that's not happening.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Okay, now I'm curious, where's that toolbar to check?
If these threads refer to test wikipedia (like edit main page) then all I see is icons, and a line below which changes if I press a button and reloads the page. Opera 7.50p1.
Daniel-
Let's judge this feature based on more feedback than just yours.
I'm *not* the only one who had a similar complaint.
So far I only count you and Elisabeth. Both Linux users - not exactly technology newbies.
No - my arguments are from the perspective of a person who is using the feature for the first time.
Not true - you used various versions of the toolbar.
A developer who engages in a CVS commit war in opposition to the consensus of the other developers
That's utter and complete bullshit. I'm very disappointed - why do you have to resort to lies to make your point?
A developer who does not listen to users
Yeah, I only made about 20 changes because I don't "listen to users." The problem is that by "listen to users" you mean that the opinion of a select few users should decide whether a feature goes live or not. I, on the other hand, argue for exposing a feature to a larger group before making a decision. The feature is not broken - the best way to test its usability is thus to activate it a couple of weeks. What exactly is your problem here?
Regards,
Erik
OK. Well I'm another user and I tried it with three different browsers. Unfortunately, it seems to be completely broken in my primary browser, Safari, unless I use the debug menu to set the user-agent to Konq or Mac IE.
It seems to work correctly in the most recent Firebird build I have: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7a) Gecko/20040118
It also correctly displays the "Click a button to get an example text" bar in IE 5.2.3 for Mac OS X.
So I would suggest to make it do something sensible in Safari instead of being a non-operative button bar. I surmise that since it is based on the same code-base as Konqueror that it should have the same behavior on both browsers. Other than that I can't say the feature shouldn't be implemented.
However, I'm not in love with the icons. They look like buttons but don't have a "pushed" state, which is bad. Also, most of the icons are not universally recognizable and should be replaced with unambiguous text. I'm sure someone spent a long time putting those icons together, but I think most of the UI research shows that icon bars like that are almost universally inscrutable.
- David [[User:Nohat]]
David-
OK. Well I'm another user and I tried it with three different browsers. Unfortunately, it seems to be completely broken in my primary browser, Safari, unless I use the debug menu to set the user-agent to Konq or Mac IE.
That should be fixed in CVS. The problem is that Safari identifies as Mozilla.
However, I'm not in love with the icons. They look like buttons but don't have a "pushed" state
I'm not sure if adding a mouseover effect would make sense, but if you think so, feel free to submit pushed state buttons.
Also, most of the icons are not universally recognizable and should be replaced with unambiguous text.
I would prefer it if they were replaced with better buttons :-). If you have any ideas, the template is at http://scireview.de/temp/button_template.gif
Regards,
Erik
I like this feature, although I just can use the "Example-Version", since I use the Konqi. But since I will never use it, til it work for Konqi too, there should be an option in the user-preferences to switch of this toolbar.
There should be 3 states: 1. Toolbar for every browser (may just in the "example-version") 2. Toolbar just for browsers it works in the original way (no "example-version") 3. No toolbar.
Second should be default for logged in users. First should be the default for IP-Adresses.
However, I'm not in love with the icons. They look like buttons but don't have a "pushed" state
I'm not sure if adding a mouseover effect would make sense, but if you think so, feel free to submit pushed state buttons.
I am not sure, if David means that, but I would prefer this too.
Since I can not test this, I have a question. Does the toolbar recognize, if the selected Text is (as an example) already bold and will delete this formating, after clicking the bold-button again?
(I guess, this was what David means with "pushed state buttons". If the text is bold, the button is shown in the "pushed" version)
Regards Ivo Köthnig
Erik Moeller a écrit:
Daniel-
Let's judge this feature based on more feedback than just yours.
I'm *not* the only one who had a similar complaint.
So far I only count you and Elisabeth. Both Linux users - not exactly technology newbies.
Your favorite and most dedicated bug tester is disappointed here.
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