...

So - can I or can't I have this particular picture of a Beatles single

sleeve, considering that it is ok to put up on en.wiki? IMHO, whenever in doubt the answer should be "load it on commons".

I disagree!!! How about finding out what the image use policies are of these wikis?

En.wp allows fair use, clearly. So was this image uploaded under the terms of fair use? (Ieg. does it have some kind of red copyright symbol on the page and a big statement about fair use?) Then definitely DON'T upload it to Commons.

As for using it in scn.wp, that depends entirely on scn.wp's image use policy. Do they have one? If not, now would be a good time to develop one.

For example, do they allow fair use images? Under what terms and requirements?

Please do not upload fair use items to the Commons. (Yeah, I'm an admin there...)

I suppose the real problem is that we should have a global copyright policy stated and translated for it to be published on all servers as a part of the distributed UI on Betawiki "prior" to opening any new edition. This really is a job for lawyers, it cannot be done by taking guesses since it impacts both on content management and on the risk of people being sued for copyright infringement. The most important thing to make clear is: who is subject to whose laws, and by what criteria one can objectively determine it. Once we get this clear, the rest is a pure matter of logics.

Sorry, but that's not going to happen. The lawyers (baffingly) seem to be happy with the current situation where total amatuers try to untangle international copyright all by their lonesome. Go figure.

Brianna

{en.wp, commons}:User:pfctdayelise

----- Исходное сообщение ----- От: "Matt Brown" morven@gmail.com Кому: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Отправлено: 28 июня 2006 г. 4:41 Тема: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

On 6/27/06, Brianna Laugher brianna.laugher@gmail.com wrote:

...

Sorry, but that's not going to happen. The lawyers (baffingly) seem to be happy with the current situation where total amatuers try to untangle international copyright all by their lonesome. Go figure.

Unfortunately, I believe, trying to set a policy could be interpreted as the Wikimedia Foundation taking responsibility for it too, rather than leaving the responsibility for copyright infringement on the uploading users, as it should be.

It's okay 4 me. Let's give the cops the guy's IP and that's it... I'll propose to pms to publish a guide telling people in BIG black capitals that whatever they do, they do it at their own personal risk. And that they should better get themselves a lawyer before uploading pics :) The rest will simply be a translation of the @ en.wiki policy. Since it's the bigger edition, it's also got to have the huger amount of pics. And if they survived with their policy so far, it means that we can survive, too.

Bèrto

Hi!

I would strongly encourage /not/ doing that... in fact I would strongly encourage going the other way and disallowing fair use and if possible, gaining community support to turn off local uploads (only use Commons images).

I'd support that for a number of reasons: 1) less administration (most of us are small communities and even without images we have more than enough trouble) 2) a wider image bank 3) a larger image reuse 4) no fuss with copyright laws for local admins

But... my aim is to attract as much traffic and active users as I can. Now, the main problema I see with using commons are: 1) you need to open an account on it, if you want the interface to start with your language. I.e: you must be able to cope with an english interface. 2) there is no way for a local edition to use commons as an "included" service (that is, one page as another, inside the edition). 3) file categorisation is 100% :en. (let alone file description) 4) file descriptions should have a sort of "fallback language", so that once they are uploaded on a language any number of tranlations maybe added without loosing the original version. Failure to do so would really mean the risk of me publishing an image from Thailand in an article on a chinese emperor (how on earth can I read that?) and the chinese publishing a Rotterdam pic in an article about the Alps. 5) commons interface is quite out of wiki standards, and the localisations distributed by Betawiki do not seem to cover the whole UI, part of which remains in english anyway.

Point 5) is quite irrilevant for me as an individual, but *not* for an average user. Pls note that small language editions mostly cope with very low alfabetisation levels (less than 2% for pms). Our average user has trouble enough in learning how to properly read and write his own language, if we add up unnecessary tech-related steps we will simply frighten them all.

Besides, I have all my trouble in explaining users how to use wiki pms, I doubt that I will end up in reducing my workload, if I have to teach them how to use commons, too.

Now, talking about "how real all this can be": I guess solving 1) and 2) would take a lot of work, 5) is probably only a matter of building a better integration of commons into the betawiki environment, so it could possibly be solved without much waste of resources.

As per 3).... People @ nap.wiki are experimenting with templates for instant multilingual translations for calendars. It could be a way to solve the classification problem and to give commons that much wider accessibility it really needs to become what it aims (and needs) to be. Point 4) is a riddle buried into an enigma, AFAIK. Providing the server space to store such descriptions would not be a big fuss, but who on earth is going to make the translations? 8-)

IMHO not just pms, but *all* local uploads should be switched off, if these problems could be succesfully adressed. And it would really free a lot of resources.

I also find the notion of passing all responsibility onto the uploader pretty bogus.

The legal responsibility is *not* passed over to the user by wmf, it's passed over because this is what law says. Unless you can have a generally accepted convention transfer the whole legal responsibility to wmf (and I agree that no matter how drunk wmf lawyers might be, they'll never sign such a decision), you must respect the laws of the country in which you perform the upload action, *no way* out of it.

You guys can check as much as you want, but if the country I am in does not agree with your criteria I am going to deal with the local cops anyway. No matter what our/mine/your definition of Open Content is, because the only definition that counts is that given by Law, which is *always* local. Let's face it. Commons is a great solution to build a shared file bank (and it's already very good for many editions as it is), but it cannot be a global copyright police, lawyer or whatever. Neither can it serve as an Open Content Certification Center (because this would mean that wmf maybe liable because of a decision made by anyone of you). I know it's unpleasant, but that's how life is. Anyway, even just a central repository is far from being useless.

Pms.wiki has very little files on its own. 98% of it are copied from foreign (mainly en) wikis when we import articles, for the simple reason that they appear to be local en files, instead of being from Commons. Now, we do believe that offering an image gallery from commons would end up in making a better edition. Will you help us in solving the 5 named accessibility problems?

The only contact I got from commons was a communication saying (more or less) "Hey guys, shut your stuff down and switch it all to commons". I asked the guy (more or less) the same questions I am asking you now. At the time I still was very new to the whole thing and I got the wrong impression that this alreadly was a global shift towards a unique common repository. Anyway...

I was asked to translate my questions in italian because he had trouble in using english (see what I mean? Not the whole planet has an EN-3, even among the admins). I translated them and... never got back any answer. It's a couple of months now. As you certainly understand, opening a new edition with a small user base means so much trouble that I simply forgot about it, until now. I guess he did exactly the same.

Hopefully you won't forget about me :) It's an important issue, but it must be carefully addressed. Bèrto

Hi again!

(Universal login: we at Commons await it more than anyone else, possibly. ;)) As for English login, not quite. We have managed to internationalise the login as much as possible: see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Userlogin .

Yes, I've used it myself. The main problem is that most users who are afraid of english will never get to see, because they will simply not click on the *login* link. Anyway, if we can setup a proper instruction page on local bases (that is, on pms) we can bridge this. The same would apply to interliki links. If one can mantain a usable UI on *any* edition he will not fear trying even the most exotic language... and this really is a quick way to locate additional pics to use in a given context.

) that it is now possible to have "Optional language selector for user login/registration forms". So I certainly hope Commons will be the first place to implement that.

I see it on all editions (more precisely: IT, EN, META, COMMONS) even now... so probably we talk about different selectors. My common:user works in pms lang, so do my it:user, en:user, meta:user, etc. What worries me is that a user needs to undergo a first page in a foreign language, in order to do this. If we could just send the user language as a link parameter we could probably solve the problem...

...

2. there is no way for a local edition to use commons as an "included"

service (that is, one page as another, inside the edition).

I mean having your upload page instead of mine. Which means all the links in the page drive the user back into pms, while only upload functions and image galleries relate to your server from everywhere in pms. Having exported fake pages is okay, too. The thing I do not wnat to happen is an unexperienced user to get lost somewhere beween two servers. What I want is having commons "seamiglessly" integrated in local editions. People should not even know that they are changing servers, unles they are interested in the tech details and go reading the docs. Most users do not give a damn about it, all they want is their pic to be uploaded for them to use it in an article, not a conference on distributed systems management.

...

3. file categorisation is 100% :en. (let alone file description)

Yes, this is true. Technical limitation until category RDRs are properly implemented.

Yes... I just tried to create a Category:{{Foo}} but there is no way to include a template in the title. It's a pity, because it's actually all it would take to get rid of the problem...

File descriptions are NOT required to be in English at all.

Yes, but I really wonder what can a japanese user get from a pms file description.

...

4. file descriptions should have a sort of "fallback language", so that

once

Not sure what you mean by this. We encourage people to translate the descriptions on image pages.

I mean something like there is on Betawiki for translators to manage UI messages. You get the original version, and you can add your own in your language. For commons I'd also have a box for a third language. This way bilingual speakers may be able to work and place their description(s) in the proper lang-code(s), for it to be shown to a native speaker when it comes the time. This way you always get the original description, an additional :en version (if present), and your version (again, if present). Most of the users' digital pics describing places that have a related wiki edition are not going to be english. We can really collect a lot of views from all over the planet, if we can manage to make it accessible to users. But we also must think of how to make this usable...

There is no way to provide that many translators for minor languages, but then again... most local editions will have their main interest focused on local places and features, and they will produce the pics for themselves. Having categories translated will do the rest.

(Check-Usage is a tool that tells you where a Commons image is being used in all of Wikimedia. Like global "what links here".)

Yes, check usage is handy... another very good point for using commons.

...

5. commons interface is quite out of wiki standards, and the

localisations

...

distributed by Betawiki do not seem to cover the whole UI, part of which remains in english anyway.

Hm, I am not sure about the technical points with Languages.php and all that. We have changed our navigation menu which most language files can't cope with, I know...

The answer could be having an extension file (smt like CommonsPms.php) managed by Betawiki. Most translators go there anyway, all the proper check-stuff is in place, so it could simply become a part of the distribution set. It would also help in getting new languages immediately in touch with commons. If you are "born using commons", then you do not need to consider it a problem. But as things are now it often simply becomes just "one more pain in the a**". And it eventually falls down to the bottom of admins' priority list. Which is exactly what happened with us @ pms.

I will just say we really encourage translators and are very responsive to updating translations. I personally promise that if you put translations on my talk page, I will update them within 24 hours of reading my talk page.

It's okay, Next week I'll start the translation. Even if we cannot have perfection right tomorrow, there is no reason not to get the whole thing ready in advance.

If you are interested, and maybe you are since your English is great, we can work together and over the next week update the language(s) you speak so they're all up to date. I agree that having the interface translated is important. (and policy pages, and warnings :) but most important of all is to have admins who can act as a bridge.)

LOL yes... The worst problem with wikipedia is the total absence of a clear way to understand how to do what and what is to be used for what. In the end it always becomes a pure matter of personal relations...

Using Commons means less work, but it certainly doesn't mean NO work. It is necessary that some admins from that Wikipedia/language take on extra responsibility and become Commons admins.

Hmmm... well... I guess I have a candidate for this :) Not me, if I want to remain alive :))) But I'll get you a competent pms speaker. Promised. :)

So some people do have to step up, because throwing your users in the deep end with no Commons contact will not work at all.

That was my worry, exactly.

We have a page

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Help_page_maintenance

which has a rough heirarchy of which pages should be translated first.

I looked up Piedmontese since I freely admit my ignorance of it. I see it is spoken in Italy. I was wondering what kind of attitude Piedmontese speakers have towards Italian speakers?

In a 3 million people user base you'll find a zillion different attitudes, depending on political opinions, soccer results, the weather, the attitude towards pms that a given ita speaker has... the relational result is totally unpredictable, as it ranges in scope from flame wars to pure love. I manage this stuff each every day @ pms, but I tell you, I'd be better off in predicting what's going to be the weather in Iceland during 2010 :) It cannot really be used as a decision criteria.

Is it true that most Piedmontese users can also read/understand Italian?

80% of them yes. A remaining 19% lives in Argentina since ages already and would be better off with ES. Us, that is the 1% high tech expat community, will probably be better off with EN, but one must consider that (as it is also the case for SCN and many other european minority languages) this particular 1% often counts as a full 70%, when it comes to counting a wiki's user base. At least at the beginning of the project.

ie....are Italian help files and messages sufficient for Piedmontese

speakers? No. In every day life it almost always gets substituted by ITA in Piedmont, and if we cannot keep an homogenous linguistic environment for our users we really risk turning all our efforts to failure. We need people to have a place for them to use the language for all kind of needs, if we want them to develop that proficiency that is necessary to write a good pms wiki. It's a pity, because it actually means that I get an additional load of translations work on my "to-do" list, but unfortunately that's the way it is...

from an Italian one? Please don't take offence if the answer is "100% essential". There's only one way to find out these things....

No offence at all :) We deal with marketing and chances for a wiki to be succesful. As far as languages are concerned I am totally result-oriented, politics and emotions mean absolutely nothing to me. You give me data, I give you data, and we both use them to find a solution that will generate more contributions and a wider user base for all. That's it. :)

Mmmm... I can't seem to guess your nick on common... you can leave me mail on http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussioni_utente:B%C3%A8rto_%27d_S%C3%A8ra so we can define a practical action plan for the merger... :) We got some 80 pics so far, If we manage to transfer them now it will be easier than making it once they already grew up to 800.

Bèrto

Hi!

I've registered and edited on several Wikipedias where I don't speak the language; I've managed to work everything out based on the the location and URLs of the links.

We all can do it... personally I'll probably never need anything else that en:wiki+commons+meta. The problem is a full user base, not people having an EN-e plus a good practice in using wikies and comps and pending a number of hours a day inside a wiki... I'm not staying up all night to serve just 30 people. I want people who are not net-junkies to be able to use it, too. :) If we cannot manage to present occasional users with easy tools we loose traffic. Not a big deal for ES.wiki, as they got billions of possible users, but really something to be avoided in our situation.

Maybe the local links to Commons could have "?uselang=" at the end of the URLs?

Yes! http://commons.wikimedia.org/?uselang=fr works. Is it an acceptable practice? By the way... this thing alone would have interwiki links mantain a stable interface, if put on the main soft engine... I do not really think that it would cost much work...

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:Upload

This is not what I want, but it's better than nothing. The good thing would be a dedicated page there, that would upload images to commons, as the old one did. Any time you ask a user to click once more you loose traffic. Things must be as simple as possible.

Bèrto

After this I will contact you directly since it's less relevant to this mailing list. But I will make a couple of points that might be relevant:

On 29/06/06, Berto albertoserra@ukr.net wrote:

Hi again!

...

(Universal login: we at Commons await it more than anyone else, possibly. ;)) As for English login, not quite. We have managed to internationalise the login as much as possible: see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Userlogin .

Yes, I've used it myself. The main problem is that most users who are afraid of english will never get to see, because they will simply not click on the *login* link. Anyway, if we can setup a proper instruction page on local bases (that is, on pms) we can bridge this. The same would apply to interliki links. If one can mantain a usable UI on *any* edition he will not fear trying even the most exotic language... and this really is a quick way to locate additional pics to use in a given context.

There is a very useful possibility you might not be aware of... try this:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Main_Page&uselang=pms

If you can give this link to your users (probably won't be able to through a menu, but on an article/page, yes), it might be easier. Of course as soon as they click on any link, the "&uselang=pms" will disappear and the menus will go back to English. So better make sure Special:Userlogin is the 2nd thing they click on. :P

BTW I think this trick should also work perfectly on wikipedias. And it should work even better since the menus won't be different.

...

) that it is now possible to have "Optional language selector for user login/registration forms". So I certainly hope Commons will be the first place to implement that.

I see it on all editions (more precisely: IT, EN, META, COMMONS) even now... so probably we talk about different selectors. My common:user works in pms lang, so do my it:user, en:user, meta:user, etc.

You are talking about the language selector at [[Special:Preferences]], right? Yes, that works everywhere. I am talking about a drop-down box for anonymous users to go through the signup process. At the moment no one has this, it is a new feature.

What worries me is that a

user needs to undergo a first page in a foreign language, in order to do this. If we could just send the user language as a link parameter we could probably solve the problem...

See above :P

...

...

2. there is no way for a local edition to use commons as an "included"

service (that is, one page as another, inside the edition).

I mean having your upload page instead of mine. Which means all the links in the page drive the user back into pms, while only upload functions and image galleries relate to your server from everywhere in pms. Having exported fake pages is okay, too. The thing I do not wnat to happen is an unexperienced user to get lost somewhere beween two servers. What I want is having commons "seamiglessly" integrated in local editions. People should not even know that they are changing servers, unles they are interested in the tech details and go reading the docs. Most users do not give a damn about it, all they want is their pic to be uploaded for them to use it in an article, not a conference on distributed systems management.

Yes, indeed... it is possible to make the upload page link to Commons, but they will of course be taken to Commons. And until we have universal login, they will have to sign up again. And they will have to meet Commons requirements of image source, necessary license information and (very strongly encouraged) category or gallery link. But I check newbie users at the moment and 19/20 do not use categories, so I don't expect pms-users to be any different. :)

...

File descriptions are NOT required to be in English at all.

Yes, but I really wonder what can a japanese user get from a pms file description.

Well I really doubt anyone will use an image if it has a caption they can't understand at all. They will simply not use the file. OK that is a loss but until we require that everyone knows 20 languages :) not much we can do.

...

ie....are Italian help files and messages sufficient for Piedmontese

speakers? No. In every day life it almost always gets substituted by ITA in Piedmont, and if we cannot keep an homogenous linguistic environment for our users we really risk turning all our efforts to failure. We need people to have a place for them to use the language for all kind of needs, if we want them to develop that proficiency that is necessary to write a good pms wiki. It's a pity, because it actually means that I get an additional load of translations work on my "to-do" list, but unfortunately that's the way it is...

OK, I understand that.

When it comes to interacting with other users, unless a PMS admin takes on a lot of translation, they will probably have to use some English or something else. I encourage all Commons users to use Babel boxes.

Mmmm... I can't seem to guess your nick on common... you can leave me mail on http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussioni_utente:B%C3%A8rto_%27d_S%C3%A8ra so we can define a practical action plan for the merger... :) We got some 80 pics so far, If we manage to transfer them now it will be easier than making it once they already grew up to 800.

OK, great. Oops, sorry I didn't write my username. it's user:pfctdayelise .

cheers, Brianna

Hi,

the answer to many of these questions is:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Instant_Commons

As to admins from small wikipedias: our problem is the fact that we are so small - being admin here and there we would not be able to care about contents anymore.

Ciao, Sabine

Chiacchiera con i tuoi amici in tempo reale! http://it.yahoo.com/mail_it/foot/*http://it.messenger.yahoo.com