. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi wikipedia-l,
the server is extremly slow at the moment, so I move this from the village pump to here. Eloquence wants to implement a default edit mode using click-buttons for formating. This doesn't work with a number of browsers. With some, it just doesn't do anything (browser that don't support JavaScript). With other browsers which support JavaScript but not the right kind, it does funny things (as inserting the formating tags not at the cursors place, but at the end of the edited text). One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too. Still, Eloquence wants to make this fancy editing mode the default mode -- which would led to an seemingly unusable wikipedia editing for a number of browsers. I must admit that I don't like the introduction of fancy editing at all, but if we introduce it, it either should work with *all* browsers currently used, or it should be off by default.
What do you think?
Best regards,
Till
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
Till Westermayer a écrit:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi wikipedia-l,
the server is extremly slow at the moment, so I move this from the village pump to here. Eloquence wants to implement a default edit mode using click-buttons for formating. This doesn't work with a number of browsers. With some, it just doesn't do anything (browser that don't support JavaScript). With other browsers which support JavaScript but not the right kind, it does funny things (as inserting the formating tags not at the cursors place, but at the end of the edited text). One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too. Still, Eloquence wants to make this fancy editing mode the default mode -- which would led to an seemingly unusable wikipedia editing for a number of browsers. I must admit that I don't like the introduction of fancy editing at all, but if we introduce it, it either should work with *all* browsers currently used, or it should be off by default.
What do you think?
Best regards,
Till
What do I think ?
I concluded from numerous browser experiments to work *with* Wikipedia, that the only browser I could use, that supported utf8, was Netscape7.
If Netscape7 may not be used any more on Wikipedia, I will revert to Opera 5. Those supporting this proposition will clean up after each of my edits :-)
SUX
From: Till Westermayer till@tillwe.de Organization: till we *) Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Date: 18 Jan 2004 19:19:00 +0100 To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] New edit modus
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi wikipedia-l,
the server is extremly slow at the moment, so I move this from the village pump to here. Eloquence wants to implement a default edit mode using click-buttons for formating. This doesn't work with a number of browsers. With some, it just doesn't do anything (browser that don't support JavaScript). With other browsers which support JavaScript but not the right kind, it does funny things (as inserting the formating tags not at the cursors place, but at the end of the edited text). One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too. Still, Eloquence wants to make this fancy editing mode the default mode -- which would led to an seemingly unusable wikipedia editing for a number of browsers. I must admit that I don't like the introduction of fancy editing at all, but if we introduce it, it either should work with *all* browsers currently used, or it should be off by default.
What do you think?
Best regards,
Till
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . . _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi Tillwe,
the server is extremly slow at the moment, so I move this from the village pump to here. Eloquence wants to implement a default edit mode using click-buttons for formating. This doesn't work with a number of browsers. With some, it just doesn't do anything (browser that don't support JavaScript).
That's been changed in CVS - JavaScript-disabled browsers will not show the toolbar.
With other browsers which support JavaScript but not the right kind, it does funny things (as inserting the formating tags not at the cursors place, but at the end of the edited text).
That's not "funny", it's intended behavior, as these browsers do not support JavaScript selection. It's still helpful for learning the tags.
One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too.
No, you didn't understand it correctly. Please refrain from further whining until the feature is actually activated.
Regards,
Erik
On Sunday 18 January 2004 02:07 pm, Anthere wrote:
Erik Moeller a écrit:
No, you didn't understand it correctly. Please refrain from further whining until the feature is actually activated.
Regards,
Erik
As long as we can ask that the feature be dis-activated later on if it prevent us from editing...
It won't prevent anyone from editing. As I understand it, one can either use the toolbar or just continue marking the text up "by hand" as is currently the practice. I personally prefer marking stuff up "by hand". I would request that the there be an on/off switch in the user preferences for this toolbar, as for me personally it just wastes screen real-estate.
I do not care much whether the toolbar is on or off by default.
Best, Sascha Noyes
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Sascha,
As long as we can ask that the feature be dis-activated later on if it prevent us from editing...
It won't prevent anyone from editing. As I understand it, one can either use the toolbar or just continue marking the text up "by hand" as is currently the practice. I personally prefer marking stuff up "by hand". I would request that the there be an on/off switch in the user preferences for this toolbar, as for me personally it just wastes screen real-estate.
I do not care much whether the toolbar is on or off by default.
Right. I only care because I think that there will be newbies using it (with the wrong browsers), wondering that it won't work and actually adding mark-up to the end of articles. If that "feature" will be disabled, I'll stop "whining" about it ... __ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Erik,
the server is extremly slow at the moment, so I move this from the village pump to here. Eloquence wants to implement a default edit mode using click-buttons for formating. This doesn't work with a number of browsers. With some, it just doesn't do anything (browser that don't support JavaScript).
That's been changed in CVS - JavaScript-disabled browsers will not show the toolbar.
Okay.
With other browsers which support JavaScript but not the right kind, it does funny things (as inserting the formating tags not at the cursors place, but at the end of the edited text).
That's not "funny", it's intended behavior, as these browsers do not support JavaScript selection. It's still helpful for learning the tags.
Yes. But do you know what actually will happen? You edit a long text with some of this browsers, click on the tag-icon, nothing happens (seemingly), you continue editing, and in the end, at the end of the text some silly tags are inserted ... every newbie with a not fully functional browser according to the MS specification (sorry for the polemics here) will do this at least once -- instead of learning the tags. Why not just disable it on these browsers, too?
One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too.
No, you didn't understand it correctly. Please refrain from further whining until the feature is actually activated.
I think I did understand it. And I think it's better to talk now about it (doing it here instead of Village Pump because of server slowness) instead of being sorry afterwards. After the implementation it will be whining, yes. But at the moment it's a discussion about a proposed new feature, which doesn't work correctly on all browsers. And calling a bug a feature doesn't help.
So, why not find a solution where the fancy editing is by default enabled on browsers where the code works correctly, only, and disabled on every other browser? __ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
Till-
Yes. But do you know what actually will happen? You edit a long text with some of this browsers, click on the tag-icon, nothing happens (seemingly), you continue editing, and in the end, at the end of the text some silly tags are inserted ...
1) They're not silly. 2) This only affects about 5% of users. 3) It only affects large pages and only happens when the cursor isn't within visible range of the end. 4) You make a prediction that users will not notice what has happened. This prediction can only be properly tested through actual use.
It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE. The code for doing that is already there. I just don't intend to do it unless it's absolutely necessary.
Regards,
Erik
erik_moeller@gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE.
Please, don't add this feature at all. There is already much too much markup applied. The "easier" it will become to add markup the worse; it is a tedious job to remove superfluous markup all over the articles.
Karl Eichwalder a écrit:
erik_moeller@gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE.
Please, don't add this feature at all. There is already much too much markup applied. The "easier" it will become to add markup the worse; it is a tedious job to remove superfluous markup all over the articles.
I will be real glad to read about that new feature of the english wikipedia, on the pump, as soon as wikipedia is working again. I do not remember it was explained or described on the fr pump, and I must admit, I have no idea what you are all talking about. It is disturbing :-)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Anthere,
Karl Eichwalder a écrit:
erik_moeller@gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE.
Please, don't add this feature at all. There is already much too much markup applied. The "easier" it will become to add markup the worse; it is a tedious job to remove superfluous markup all over the articles.
I will be real glad to read about that new feature of the english wikipedia, on the pump, as soon as wikipedia is working again. I do not remember it was explained or described on the fr pump, and I must admit, I have no idea what you are all talking about. It is disturbing :-)
meanwhile, you can have a look at
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
I am ever so patient, but the longer these access delays continue, the greater the potential is of losing users. It doesn't happen on purpose, but people begin to fill their time with other things, and then slowly lose the wikipedia bug. I am a devoted participant here, but wikipedia is falling out of my daily routine simply because I cannot access the darn thing. I can't even browse it for fun!
Terribly frustrated, Oliver
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Hi,
Le Sunday 18 January 2004 21:28, Till Westermayer a écrit :
meanwhile, you can have a look at
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
It doesn't work on Konqueror, it seems. Yann
- -- http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net http://fr.wikipedia.org/ | Encyclopédie libre http://www.forget-me.net/pro/ | Formations et services Linux
Yann Forget a écrit:
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Hi,
Le Sunday 18 January 2004 21:28, Till Westermayer a écrit :
meanwhile, you can have a look at
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
It doesn't work on Konqueror, it seems. Yann
I can't check it on Netscape since I can't access wikipedia :-(
Till Westermayer a écrit:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Anthere,
Karl Eichwalder a écrit:
erik_moeller@gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE.
Please, don't add this feature at all. There is already much too much markup applied. The "easier" it will become to add markup the worse; it is a tedious job to remove superfluous markup all over the articles.
I will be real glad to read about that new feature of the english wikipedia, on the pump, as soon as wikipedia is working again. I do not remember it was explained or described on the fr pump, and I must admit, I have no idea what you are all talking about. It is disturbing :-)
meanwhile, you can have a look at
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
thanks, I looked.
There is no such thing as a tool bar over there. So, if I see nothing special, I suppose it works. By default.
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
Just tested with konqueror. Text was added at the end, not at the cursor position, "unvisible" (unnoticed), because the end could not be seen in the current viewport. That clearly IS A BUG. Do not enable it as default, if it's not working correctly with all browsers.
Uli
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Anthere wrote:
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
thanks, I looked.
There is no such thing as a tool bar over there. So, if I see nothing special, I suppose it works. By default.
This is because, probably, the toolbar does not work with your browser (there's some discussion about it). Currently, it seems to work OK in IE, with some problems in Mozilla and some other, and nothing at all in others.
Alfio
Till Westermayer a écrit:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Anthere,
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
found the *ù^é&@¨& thing... that seems to work though why does the page goes up each time you click on something ?
what would be nice would be that you could select a textblabla, and then click on the tool, and it would automatically transform the bit in the appropriate way.
From: Anthere anthere8@yahoo.com Reply-To: anthere8@yahoo.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:33:51 +0100 To: wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New edit modus
Till Westermayer a écrit:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Anthere,
http://test.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page&action=edit
found the *ù^é&@¨& thing... that seems to work though why does the page goes up each time you click on something ?
This happens in Netscape, but not in Internet Explorer (at least the Macintosh versions)
Fred
what would be nice would be that you could select a textblabla, and then click on the tool, and it would automatically transform the bit in the appropriate way.
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Karl-
Please, don't add this feature at all. There is already much too much markup applied. The "easier" it will become to add markup the worse; it is a tedious job to remove superfluous markup all over the articles.
Typing '' isn't exactly hard either. I have deliberately omitted buttons for fancy markup such as fonts and colors.
Regards,
Erik
erik_moeller@gmx.de (Erik Moeller) writes:
Typing '' isn't exactly hard either.
On a German keyboard it is and you can confuse it with the accents easily ́́... But that's not the point. If the users will see the buttons they will (mis)use them, because it's so nice to click on something.
But since the server isn't available it does not matter ;)
"only" 5% ?
so 5% of users have no importance for you ?
you don't care about them ?
--Optim
- They're not silly.
- This only affects about 5% of users.
- It only affects large pages and only happens
when the cursor isn't within visible range of the end. 4) You make a prediction that users will not notice what has happened. This prediction can only be properly tested through actual use.
It's trivial to disable the toolbar in non-Moz/IE. The code for doing that is already there. I just don't intend to do it unless it's absolutely necessary.
Regards,
Erik _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Erik Moeller wrote:
Hi Tillwe,
One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too.
No, you didn't understand it correctly. Please refrain from further whining until the feature is actually activated.
Reading the village pump, I understood the same thing. Saying "stop whining" is not nice.
I would vote for this feature to be implemented, but disabled by default, at least until such issues are resolved.
Ciao, Alfio
Eloquence (Erik Moeller) wrote in part:
Tillwe wrote:
One of this browsers is Netscape 7.1, and if I understand the discussion at the village pump correclty, Mozilla won't work correctly, too.
No, you didn't understand it correctly. Please refrain from further whining until the feature is actually activated.
This response isn't very useful for those of us that have only read about this on this mailing list. Tillwe's fears, if grounded, would make it a bad thing the moment that the feature is activated at all. Now, his fears may well be groundless, as you imply, but the people on the mailing list don't know that. (The word "whining" is especially unproductive.)
-- Toby
Toby-
This response isn't very useful for those of us that have only read about this on this mailing list. Tillwe's fears, if grounded, would make it a bad thing the moment that the feature is activated at all. Now, his fears may well be groundless, as you imply, but the people on the mailing list don't know that. (The word "whining" is especially unproductive.)
Tillwe is spreading FUD. I consider FUD unproductive. If he wanted to understand the issues, he should have talked to me first.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller a écrit:
Toby-
This response isn't very useful for those of us that have only read about this on this mailing list. Tillwe's fears, if grounded, would make it a bad thing the moment that the feature is activated at all. Now, his fears may well be groundless, as you imply, but the people on the mailing list don't know that. (The word "whining" is especially unproductive.)
Tillwe is spreading FUD. I consider FUD unproductive. If he wanted to understand the issues, he should have talked to me first.
Regards,
Erik
What is FUD ?
Erik Moeller wrote:
Toby Bartels wrote:
This response isn't very useful for those of us that have only read about this on this mailing list. Tillwe's fears, if grounded, would make it a bad thing the moment that the feature is activated at all. Now, his fears may well be groundless, as you imply, but the people on the mailing list don't know that. (The word "whining" is especially unproductive.)
Tillwe is spreading FUD. I consider FUD unproductive. If he wanted to understand the issues, he should have talked to me first.
OK, so he's spreading FUD. But how could I possibly know that?
Your response didn't do me any good here, and I doubt that I'm the only person on this mailing list that hasn't looked at the English village pump recently.
I know that you don't want to repeat your answers to Tillwe's FUD all over again just because he posted it to another forum. So here are some replies that you might make instead:
# Since this is planned only for [[en:]], I will respond on <wikiEN-L>. # Since this is planned only for [[en:]] and that wiki is now responsive, please see my earlier replies on [[en:Village pump]]. # This is only a vauge idea now, and I will propose it on <wikitech-L> when it becomes serious. If you want to join the current discussion on [[en:Village pump]], then there's plenty of time to wait for that wiki to become responsive again. # This has been discussed already on <wikitech-L> under Subject:XXX. The stuff on the English village pump is not the main discussion and the points raised there should not be trusted fully. # This has been discussed already at [[meta:XXX]]. The stuff on the English village pump is not the main discussion and the points raised there should not be trusted fully. # I have given adequate response already on [[en:Village pump]]. Since this is an option for all wikis, I'm sorry that the proposal was discussed for so long only there, even close to its implementation. Since that wiki is unresponsive, I'll hold off on any implementation until you all can read my replies there, which I will move when I can to a central location at [[meta:XXX]]. Then you will see that it's OK.
Only some of these would be appropriate, depending on the situation; but all of them, if appropriate, would dispell Tillwe's FUD.
However, if you want to call Tillwe a whiner, then please do it privately.
-- Toby
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Erik Moeller wrote:
Tillwe is spreading FUD. I consider FUD unproductive. If he wanted to understand the issues, he should have talked to me first.
???? He said that, according to the village pump, the edit toolbar has problems with Mozilla. Ok, so it's actually Mozilla that has problems with the toolbar. How is this "whining" or "spreading FUD"?
Alfio
Just FWIW. I am using Mozilla 1.5 (let us call it a bug and I fancy it is Mozilla's but just in case it is not):
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031007
when I am writing near the end of the textbox, if I press any button the markup appears BUT the text scrolls back to the top (although the cursor remains at its place. So I read the top again (although if I go on writing, then the text area scrolls down again to show the cursor). Yes, it is funny...
Not a complain, just a bug notification.
I like it more or less, but I find it cumbersone having to move back, deleting, etc...
BTW: I like the flower at the test page :)
Pedro.
Pedro-
Not a complain, just a bug notification.
This is a bug in Mozilla. It appears in all such toolbars I've seen (in fact ours at least gets the cursor position right). I have reported it and all we can do is wait for the Mozilla development team to fix it. IMHO it is not so severe to justify disabling the toolbar, as 1) it happens only in Moz, 2) you are still in the right position after you move the cursor.
Regards,
Erik
Erik Moeller wrote:
Pedro-
Not a complain, just a bug notification.
This is a bug in Mozilla. It appears in all such toolbars I've seen (in fact ours at least gets the cursor position right). I have reported it and all we can do is wait for the Mozilla development team to fix it. IMHO it is not so severe to justify disabling the toolbar, as 1) it happens only in Moz, 2) you are still in the right position after you move the cursor.
I *really* like new toys to play with, but I have two questions: * In which browsers does it actually work the way it is supposed to? * Why can't this be an off-by-default user option?
Magnus
Magnus-
- In which browsers does it actually work the way it is supposed to?
In all of them -- it provides the maximum functionality each browser supports.
- Why can't this be an off-by-default user option?
Because the whole point of the feature is to make it easier for newbies to learn the wiki syntax.
Regards,
Erik
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Erik,
Magnus-
- In which browsers does it actually work the way it is supposed
to?
In all of them -- it provides the maximum functionality each browser supports.
The whole point of my "whining" is that this just isn't true. Or that it is true, but that other people would call the "maximum functionality" in Netscape, Mozilla and Konqueror "bug" normally.
Don't take this so damned personal -- I just try to prevent a new feature that doesn't work (as in: does what it should do) being enabled by default everywhere.
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Habsburgerstr. 82 . 79104 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
"EM" == Erik Moeller erik_moeller@gmx.de writes:
EM> Because the whole point of the feature is to make it easier EM> for newbies to learn the wiki syntax.
So, I just want to make sure that you've actually seen epoz:
http://www.zope.org/Members/mjablonski/Epoz
It's beautiful.
~ESP
Sorry, I gave the URL for the old (0.x) versions of epoz. The newer versions live here:
~ESP
For Your Information:
Based on this: http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2003-August/011479.html
I removed the "Wikipedia is against Software Patents in Europe" notice from the Greek Wikipedia (el.wikipedia.org) Main Page. The notice also had a link to a website.
--Optim.
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Eloquence wants to implement a default edit mode using click-buttons for formating.
I've tried the feature and it seems extremely buggy (whether the bugs are in the features or in browsers is irrelevant).
Using that to teach newbies wiki syntax is like putting someone in a car that has a number of malfunctions and hoping they'd use it to learn to drive.
Implementations of the same kind of toolbar that I have seen elsewhere (namely, LiveJournal ;-) ), weren't any better. Fortunately, they were wise enough to not make it default.
I strongly vote against enabling it by default.
Timwi
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org