Good afternoon,
Here is the information required for the procedure:
*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc ISO-639 2: oc ISO-639: oci *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official census) It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects. Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the majority written form used in the region. Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but an article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because of the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm (s)he won't be able to read easily.
That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result of my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared by many other people. Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it alive.
Thank you very much,
Regards,
C. E.
Hi Cyprien,
I can certainly understand the desire to utilize and maintain a language of regional and historical importance. At a glance, I can see some technical and practical challenges to incorporating the Provençal language as a standalone project.
The first hurdle I see is a shared language code with the Occitan language, as you previously cited. How would you propose to differentiate Occitan and Provençal Wikimedia projects? One solution I may propose is the use of Occitan's 639-3 code "oci" for Provençal.
The next matter to consider is the size and success of Provençal Wikimedia communities. If there is not much of an audience or community, chances of receiving a full-fledged Wikimedia project are slim. Perhaps a start would be requesting Incubator projects?
I wish I could provide more on this, but I unfortunately don't have all the answers and knowledge others do.
Best, Dakota (dross) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dross
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:27 AM Cyprien Emeric cyprien.emeric@gmail.com wrote:
Good afternoon,
Here is the information required for the procedure:
*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc ISO-639 2: oc ISO-639: oci *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official census) It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects. Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the majority written form used in the region. Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but an article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because of the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm (s)he won't be able to read easily.
That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result of my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared by many other people. Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it alive.
Thank you very much,
Regards,
C. E. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi Dakota,
I am aware of the difficulties there are, and the difficulties there will be to develop this project. That's why I am really happy to see that you can help me a bit.
First, about the language code, I don't really have any solution. I sent you the email knowing that it would be a problem. I am ready to try to ask for a different code to the institutions, but I think you had a great idea, so maybe we should try to see if your solution works before starting another procedure.
Then, about the Provençal Wikimedia community, I am sure we can find quite easily a group of people which would make the project alive. There is already an Occitan community, and I am sure some people in this community know Provençal and could become contributors in this project too. In addition, I also know Provençal associations and institutions which could help and participate a lot in the project, and which could form a community important enough to make it alive. But you'll understand if I don't want to ask them anything whithout being sure that this project can take shape. Could you also explain me what you meant with "requesting Incubator projects"?
Finally, I'd also like to talk about the number of speakers: what I gave you in my previous email is only the approximate number of native speakers there are. I didn't mention the number of non native speakers of Provençal (speakers like me, which undoubtedly constitute a large part of the total number of speakers). Provençal is taught in some schools (perhaps I can get the number of Provençal students in schools if needed), and some speakers also learn it on the Internet or by reading books, etc. If a Provençal Wikimedia project was created, it would surely motivate them a lot, and thus increase the number of potential contributors (please don't laugh, we never realize the psychological power things can have on people, and the consequences it can generate). It would also help a lot Provençal teachers in schools: it would allow them to use the Provençal Wikipedia in classes, for example, and thus increase the number of speakers in the long run. A Provençal Wikimedia project would bring exposure to the language too, and that's what it most needs.
I really hope you'll be able to help me, and I thank you a lot for your kindness.
Sincerely,
Cyprien.
Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 18:19, Dakota Ross rossd.web@gmail.com a écrit :
Hi Cyprien,
I can certainly understand the desire to utilize and maintain a language of regional and historical importance. At a glance, I can see some technical and practical challenges to incorporating the Provençal language as a standalone project.
The first hurdle I see is a shared language code with the Occitan language, as you previously cited. How would you propose to differentiate Occitan and Provençal Wikimedia projects? One solution I may propose is the use of Occitan's 639-3 code "oci" for Provençal.
The next matter to consider is the size and success of Provençal Wikimedia communities. If there is not much of an audience or community, chances of receiving a full-fledged Wikimedia project are slim. Perhaps a start would be requesting Incubator projects?
I wish I could provide more on this, but I unfortunately don't have all the answers and knowledge others do.
Best, Dakota (dross) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dross
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:27 AM Cyprien Emeric cyprien.emeric@gmail.com wrote:
Good afternoon,
Here is the information required for the procedure:
*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc ISO-639 2: oc ISO-639: oci *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official census) It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects. Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the majority written form used in the region. Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but
an
article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because
of
the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm (s)he won't be able to read easily.
That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result
of
my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared by many other people. Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it
alive.
Thank you very much,
Regards,
C. E. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Cyprien,
Please read https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy and if you meet the criteria, add the request to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
Best regards, Jim
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:20 PM Cyprien Emeric cyprien.emeric@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Dakota,
I am aware of the difficulties there are, and the difficulties there will be to develop this project. That's why I am really happy to see that you can help me a bit.
First, about the language code, I don't really have any solution. I sent you the email knowing that it would be a problem. I am ready to try to ask for a different code to the institutions, but I think you had a great idea, so maybe we should try to see if your solution works before starting another procedure.
Then, about the Provençal Wikimedia community, I am sure we can find quite easily a group of people which would make the project alive. There is already an Occitan community, and I am sure some people in this community know Provençal and could become contributors in this project too. In addition, I also know Provençal associations and institutions which could help and participate a lot in the project, and which could form a community important enough to make it alive. But you'll understand if I don't want to ask them anything whithout being sure that this project can take shape. Could you also explain me what you meant with "requesting Incubator projects"?
Finally, I'd also like to talk about the number of speakers: what I gave you in my previous email is only the approximate number of native speakers there are. I didn't mention the number of non native speakers of Provençal (speakers like me, which undoubtedly constitute a large part of the total number of speakers). Provençal is taught in some schools (perhaps I can get the number of Provençal students in schools if needed), and some speakers also learn it on the Internet or by reading books, etc. If a Provençal Wikimedia project was created, it would surely motivate them a lot, and thus increase the number of potential contributors (please don't laugh, we never realize the psychological power things can have on people, and the consequences it can generate). It would also help a lot Provençal teachers in schools: it would allow them to use the Provençal Wikipedia in classes, for example, and thus increase the number of speakers in the long run. A Provençal Wikimedia project would bring exposure to the language too, and that's what it most needs.
I really hope you'll be able to help me, and I thank you a lot for your kindness.
Sincerely,
Cyprien.
Le lun. 22 oct. 2018 à 18:19, Dakota Ross rossd.web@gmail.com a écrit :
Hi Cyprien,
I can certainly understand the desire to utilize and maintain a language of regional and historical importance. At a glance, I can see some technical and practical challenges to incorporating the Provençal language as a standalone project.
The first hurdle I see is a shared language code with the Occitan language, as you previously cited. How would you propose to differentiate Occitan and Provençal Wikimedia projects? One solution I may propose is the use of Occitan's 639-3 code "oci" for Provençal.
The next matter to consider is the size and success of Provençal Wikimedia communities. If there is not much of an audience or community, chances of receiving a full-fledged Wikimedia project are slim. Perhaps a start would be requesting Incubator projects?
I wish I could provide more on this, but I unfortunately don't have all the answers and knowledge others do.
Best, Dakota (dross) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Dross
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:27 AM Cyprien Emeric cyprien.emeric@gmail.com wrote:
Good afternoon,
Here is the information required for the procedure:
*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc ISO-639 2: oc ISO-639: oci *Number of living native speakers:* about 400.000 (no recent official census) It can be considered as a dialect of the Occitan language but some particularities make it very different from the other Occitan dialects. Moreover, the way of writing is not the same: a different written form is used in the provençal area, a specific one, designed for the Provençal language/dialect, and called "mistralian norm". It is a norm which uses forms closer to the oral language, and thus easier to read, and is the majority written form used in the region. Because of the fact that provençal, like all other regional languages of France, has never been taught in schools until now, most of the native speakers can't understand a written text, even if they speak the language and they understand it orally. If one of those speakers want to read a Wikipedia article in the language (s)he speaks, he will find nothing but
an
article written in general Occitan, that (s)he won't understand because
of
the dialectal differences and the written form used, an unfamiliar norm (s)he won't be able to read easily.
That's the reason why we need a Provençal version of Wikipedia, and why I send you this email. Please consider all these elements before taking a decision. I am ready to provide more elements if necessary.
What I told you is not a politic or a personal opinion; it's the result
of
my ambition of preserving and promoting this language, an ambition shared by many other people. Adding Provençal to the Wikipedia languages would help us to make it
alive.
Thank you very much,
Regards,
C. E. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Cyprien Emeric, 21/10/2018 19:27:
*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
https://oc.wikipedia.org/ already exists.
Federico
Yes, Cyprien Emeric addressed that in the original email.
Regardless, the appropriate venue for this request is Meta-Wiki, not this mailing list.
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 10:31 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
Cyprien Emeric, 21/10/2018 19:27:
*Name of the language:* Provençal / Prouvençau *Codes:* ISO-639 1: oc
https://oc.wikipedia.org/ already exists.
Federico
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org