Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 10.07.05 16:12:26:
As it so happens, it appears Heiko sends all communication in Hochdeutsch, occasionally proceeded by "moin moin" to make it sound more Platt-ish. Slomox, the other most active current admin, is also not a native speaker of Low Saxon (but rather Hochdeutsch),
With these people running this nokieksel op 't patentplatt, it's no wonder it's... in patentplatt.
It really looks like the Low Saxon edition of Wikipedia has not yet achieved the level of language quality it should have. On the other hand many of the deficits are due to the fact that the Platt spoken nowadays in most areas is highly influenced by High German.
Also, the nds.wiki mainpage says it's in Plattdüütsch (ie, flat german)... and in parenthesis after it says "Plattdüütsch", it says "neddersassisch un oostnedderdüütsch" (Low Saxon and East Low German). Hmm... according to the ISO, "nds" does not include East Low German. Only Low Saxon. Seems this Wikipedia is not in accordance...
I noticed quite a while ago that this could cause a lot of confusion, especially among people from abroad. Generally, people in Northern Germany uniformly refer to their multiple regional or local dialects as "Platt" or "Plattdüütsch", in High German we say "Plattdeutsch" or "Platt" and sometimes in more formal, written High German the term "Niederdeutsch" is used (to avoid the somewhat negative connotation of "flat"). This refers, as far as I know, to all dialects from the Dutch border to the Polish border (except the Frisian ones, of course). While people are well aware of the existance of many different dialects a distinction between Low Saxon and East Low German dialects is not made among the "general public". Everything is perceived as "Platt(deutsch)".
Interestingly, the term "Low Saxon" which we use so frequently here (because that`s the term used in English and apparently in Dutch, too) is _never_ used in Germany, only in scientific contexts. It seems like the somewhat clumsy headline on the nds homepage was chosen in order to include users from the Netherlands (who would be excluded by solely using the term plattdüütsch because the "German" part would alienate them).
Boris
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As it so happens, it appears Heiko sends all communication in Hochdeutsch, occasionally proceeded by "moin moin" to make it sound more Platt-ish. Slomox, the other most active current admin, is also not a native speaker of Low Saxon (but rather Hochdeutsch),
With these people running this nokieksel op 't patentplatt, it's no wonder it's... in patentplatt.
It really looks like the Low Saxon edition of Wikipedia has not yet achieved the level of language quality it should have. On the other hand many of the deficits are due to the fact that the Platt spoken nowadays in most areas is highly influenced by High German.
This is certainly true. Yet, I was surprised at the resentment from Slomox and Heiko over the accusations. They both insist that it isn't in Patentplatt. Yet, they are not native speakers (they both admit this), while Ron Hahn and Jonny Meinbohm (the ones making the accusation originally) actually are native speakers.
If instead they had admitted "You are right that most of nds.wiki is in Patentplatt. We are working on fixing it." or "You are right that most of nds.wiki is in Patentplatt. We wish we could change it, but are not native speakers and so need help to fix it."
Also, the nds.wiki mainpage says it's in Plattdüütsch (ie, flat german)... and in parenthesis after it says "Plattdüütsch", it says "neddersassisch un oostnedderdüütsch" (Low Saxon and East Low German). Hmm... according to the ISO, "nds" does not include East Low German. Only Low Saxon. Seems this Wikipedia is not in accordance...
I noticed quite a while ago that this could cause a lot of confusion, especially among people from abroad. Generally, people in Northern Germany uniformly refer to their multiple regional or local dialects as "Platt" or "Plattdüütsch", in High German we say "Plattdeutsch" or "Platt" and sometimes in more formal, written High German the term "Niederdeutsch" is used (to avoid the somewhat negative connotation of "flat"). This refers, as far as I know, to all dialects from the Dutch border to the Polish border (except the Frisian ones, of course). While people are well aware of the existance of many different dialects a distinction between Low Saxon and East Low German dialects is not made among the "general public". Everything is perceived as "Platt(deutsch)".
This is true. But I think the main issue here is not orthography, or "Dutch Low Saxon" and "German Low Saxon" varieties, but rather shades of mutual intelligibility. We would do well to have separate Wikipedias for different dialects or dialect-groups.
The question is, how far do we divide?
There are a few options:
Western (Ostfriesland, Oldenburg, Emsland, all Netherlands varieties, Westphalia, Eastphalia), Eastern (Mecklenburg, West Pomerania, Mercia, Brandenburg), and Plautdietsch (the Mennonite varieties which today are spoken mostly in the Americas), would be the least number of divisions.
If that isn't enough divisions, it can be split to Northwestern LS (Ostfriesland, Oldenburg, Emsland, Groningen, Drenthe, W. Overijssel, Stellingwerven), Westphalian (Westphalia, Twente, Salland, Gelderland), Eastphalian (Eastphalia), Northeastern LS (Mecklenburg, West Pomerania), Southeastern LS (Mercia, Brandenburg), and Plautdietsch...
And then, the most divisions would be Ostfreesk, Oldenburgisch, Emslandisch, Grunnegers, Dreents, Overyssels, Stellingwarfs, Westfaelsch, Tweants, Sallands, Gelderlands (Veluws + Achterhooks), Eastphalian, Mecklenburgish, West Pomeranian, Mercian, Brandenburgish, and Plautdietsch.
Of course, you could introduce even more divisions than *that*, but that would be bordering on mentally insane: a separate Wikipedia for Hoogeveen Drèents and Zuidwolde Drèents, for example... given, there _are_ differences, eg "h" in Zuidwolde Drèents is usually silent in Hoogeveen Drèents, Zuidwolde "zi'j" vs. Hoogeveen "ze", Zuidwolde "pruugels" vs. Hoogeveen "jonchies" (children), but within a paragraph there are not very many differences, and most of them are regular sound-changes that make it easier (a Hoogeveen-Drèents speaker can read Zuidwolde Drèents words such as "heur", "hummelties", "huus", "hier", and the like, keeping in mind that the "h" of Zuidwolde is silent in Hoogeveen).
Interestingly, the term "Low Saxon" which we use so frequently here (because that`s the term used in English and apparently in Dutch, too) is _never_ used in Germany, only in scientific contexts. It seems like the somewhat clumsy headline on the nds homepage was chosen in order to include users from the Netherlands (who would be excluded by solely using the term plattdüütsch because the "German" part would alienate them).
True... but it's rather pointless that they made that effort to not alienate people from the Netherlands, since they have already alienated them quite a bit by using Sass spelling with no special provisions.
Mark
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