Ok, so it finally came down to this: a few people say that some thing has to be done one way, while many other people say it has to be done in another way. Whatever the discussion, whatever the results of a poll, whatever the arguments, the minority can always say that they are being trampled upon if things are done the way the majority prefers. The net result is that no amount of effort can result in breaking this deadlock in any civilised way, because the very fact that a majority thinks differently than the minority is being challenged.
Imposing the majority's view over the minority will no doubt result in some negative emotional responses from the minority, but isn't this preferable to having negative emotional responses from the majority? If I rename that article I will be both bashed about for "making unilateral decisions" (they are not unilateral, the majority supports this decision, but the minority will scream that they are being treated unfair, as explained above). Also, this would most certainly result in a bloody edit war (well, "renaming war" would be the proper term in this case, but I'll use "edit war" for consistency).
So, what are the Wikipedia recommendations in this case? Danutz, practically the sole proponent of the minority view on the Romanian Wikipedia, explicitly refuses to acknowledge any support /at all/ for the majority (BOR spelling) on this mailing list, in the "Minority/majority question" thread. The trick is that the Romanians' views are by default tainted with POV in his opinion, therefore he will not accept any decision made by the majority on the Romanian Wikipedia. He seems however somewhat willing to accept as NPOV the decision of other Wikipedians.
Is there any reasonable way to settle this in an objective, quantizable way (for instance with a poll) on other Wikipedias? Here is what Danutz is calling for (translated from http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discu%C5%A3ie:Isus_Cristos which is in Romanian): "I propose [to decide on the main spelling by] asking someone who can preserve NPOV, from several international Wikipedias, with experience in such problems, not only the English one (I propose the Portuguese, Spanish, French and German), but not to the Arbitration Committee which you [, Gutza] are a member of."
Personally I find these requests unreasonable, but at the end of the day there are three possible solutions to this problem: 1) Status quo, the minoritarian version is preserved with the current spelling both for the naming and in the article, probably with a note acknowledging the majority spelling; 2) I or anyone else renames and changes the spelling in the article, inserting a note acknowledging the minority spelling; 3) All of Danutz's requests are granted and we act based on the outcome of that vote.
Both 1) and 2) will result in flames, edit wars, protection wars (both Danutz and I are administrators), and probably banning users. I don't find this reasonable either. So, what do we do? You people are the only hope for a peaceful solution, whichever it may be. So please answer and make suggestions, we would both appreciate that! Thank you for your patience and interest.
Have a nice Sunday! Gutza
On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 05:53:18PM +0300, Gutza wrote:
Is there any reasonable way to settle this
What about first explaining the problem, then using only "Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos" everywhere on Romanian Wikipedia:
Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos foo bar xxx yyy, and then the death of Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos blah blah blah ...
Call the article "Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos" with redirects from both "Iisus Hristos" and "Isus Cristos".
It may sound silly, but it's better to be a bit silly than to have an never-ending flamewar.
Hi,
Le Sunday 01 August 2004 17:21, Tomasz Wegrzanowski a écrit :
On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 05:53:18PM +0300, Gutza wrote:
Is there any reasonable way to settle this
What about first explaining the problem, then using only "Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos" everywhere on Romanian Wikipedia:
Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos foo bar xxx yyy, and then the death of Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos blah blah blah ...
Call the article "Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos" with redirects from both "Iisus Hristos" and "Isus Cristos".
It may sound silly, but it's better to be a bit silly than to have an never-ending flamewar.
Yes to me, this seems the best way to settle the question, but I would rather use a hyphen : [[Iisus Hristos-Isus Cristos]].
In any case, whenever there is a subject of hot debate, the best is first cool down, wait for a week and then come back to the discussion.
Just my 0.02 €
Yann
That can be well acepted. It would be best for the article to be named Iisus Hristos-Isus Cristos or even Iisus Hristos and Isus Cristos.
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Yann Forget wrote:
Le Sunday 01 August 2004 17:21, Tomasz Wegrzanowski a écrit :
Call the article "Iisus Hristos/Isus Cristos" with redirects from both "Iisus Hristos" and "Isus Cristos".
Yes to me, this seems the best way to settle the question, but I would rather use a hyphen : [[Iisus Hristos-Isus Cristos]].
Useful point. The diagonal suggests that one is a sub-page of the other.
Ec
Gutza wrote:
Ok, so it finally came down to this: a few people say that some thing has to be done one way, while many other people say it has to be done in another way. Whatever the discussion, whatever the results of a poll, whatever the arguments, the minority can always say that they are being trampled upon if things are done the way the majority prefers.
So what? Wikipedia is not an organization for preserving the rights of a minority but an encyclopedia. As such, it should report the mainstream view and give adequate space and consideration to minority view points.
If hundred thousand people call a thing X and one thousand call it Y, wikipedia should call it X and mention that thousand call it Y. If three people call it Z, it's an aspect which need not be mentioned (except these three are _very_ important people).
greetings, elian
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
So what? Wikipedia is not an organization for preserving the rights of a minority but an encyclopedia. As such, it should report the mainstream view and give adequate space and consideration to minority view points.
If hundred thousand people call a thing X and one thousand call it Y, wikipedia should call it X and mention that thousand call it Y. If three people call it Z, it's an aspect which need not be mentioned (except these three are _very_ important people).
Very very well said, and I agree completely.
Of course, it must be acknowledged that in some cases some decision has to be made as to where the article will be located, i.e. the article title itself. If people are heated up about that, it's hard to find a resolution.
I see this as very similar to the British/American spelling situation. Our solution on en.wikipedia.org is mostly to just try to relax and not get too uptight about it. (There is more to the policy than that, but really, it boils down to that in my mind, and this has worked out reasonably well.)
--Jimbo
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