corrigendum: in my third sentence "but" should be "both"
wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 17:50:54:
Hi Servien!
Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattdüütsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> kümmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "höyl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "wöyrden" also omitted here> sünnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattdüütsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "ü" or an "u" there?) for "kümmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
Boris
Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system: As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text: If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look, but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography: Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna actually ken the leid. (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ... would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ... and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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Hey all! I'd like to formally request a Ladino Wiki lad.wikipedia.org and lad.wiktionary.org for the Ladino/Judeo-Spanish with ISO 639 code of 'lad'. The Ladino Komunita is quite alive and going through a renewal of sorts. There are live broadcasts in Ladino in Spanish and Israeli radio/tv and quite few periodicals are written in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language
With regards, Jay B. en:User:ILVI
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_wikipedia Find your language "Go to your language's Wikipedia on List of Wikipedias. If your language is not on the list, then contact wikipedia-l (http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l) to ask for its creation. Then, list it on requests for new languages. In your posting, you should list some information. This might include the name of the language, the language code, and the number of people who can speak it."
Hi Ilooy,
I have a few questions.
First of all: is Ladino your native language? If not, what is the purpose of this request? Second of all: What orthography do you plan on using? First of all there is the division of scripts: Latin vs Hebrew. Hebrew seems to have more adherents in Israel from what I can tell, but it seems that worldwide people prefer the Latin alphabet (although this wasn't true a century ago). Then, if you decided to use Latin, there is yet another problem... there are different ways to write Djudeo-Espanyol in Latin. I personally think Hebrew would be better, but then I am not a member of the Ladino-speaking community. Third of all: If you use Hebrew, would you mark vowels? Would you write as Ladino is traditionally written in Hebrew letters, or would you write it as if it were Hebrew language (you can see this done by some people on some websites, all in Israel)? Some people have said that Hebrew script without vowels is not well-suited to writing the Ladino language. However, as with other Indo-European languages written in abjads (ie, consonant-only alphabets), such as Farsi, Pashto, Urdu, Sindhi, and even Mozarabic (now extinct), it seems to be easily readable to native speakers, if not to learners. However unlike many languages using abjads, Ladino vowels are actually written... there's just no real distinction made between "o"/"u" and "i"/"e", and also between "p"/"f". So a word such as "Ladino" could also be read as "Ladenu", "Ladeno", or "Ladinu", and a word such as "festivales" could be read as "pistibalis" as well. However, as none of those are real words in Djudeo-espanyol, it's not a problem in most cases.
Mark
On 05/07/05, ilooy ilooy.gaon@gmail.com wrote:
Hey all! I'd like to formally request a Ladino Wiki lad.wikipedia.org and lad.wiktionary.org for the Ladino/Judeo-Spanish with ISO 639 code of 'lad'. The Ladino Komunita is quite alive and going through a renewal of sorts. There are live broadcasts in Ladino in Spanish and Israeli radio/tv and quite few periodicals are written in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language
With regards, Jay B. en:User:ILVI
--
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/How_to_start_a_new_wikipedia Find your language "Go to your language's Wikipedia on List of Wikipedias. If your language is not on the list, then contact wikipedia-l (http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l) to ask for its creation. Then, list it on requests for new languages. In your posting, you should list some information. This might include the name of the language, the language code, and the number of people who can speak it." _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
2005/7/6, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
Hi Ilooy,
I have a few questions.
First of all: is Ladino your native language? If not, what is the purpose of this request?
Hey Mark,
No, actually I'm a polyglot... The purpose of the request is to set up a subdomain for a new wiki http://lad.wikipedia.org and http://lad.wiktionary.org
Second of all: What orthography do you plan on using? First of all there is the division of scripts: Latin vs Hebrew. [...]
Based on the usage of "Aki Yerushalayim" magazine and the Ladinokomunita discussions, the Latin alphabet enjoys the support of the Ladino speaking community.
The Rashi characters are older means of writing out Ladino texts, but without vowel pointing, using "matres lectionis" letters for this purpose.
I don't think there would be enough support in the Ladino community to bring back the Hebrew alphabet orthography. However, the very phonetic spelling in Latin characters is even supported by fluent Ladino users in Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino
So there is interest in the set up of such a wiki by an active community of speakers. There are periodicals using the Latin alphabet to write it, and I've formally requested the setup of the sub-domain on Wikipedia-l and on Meta...
What is the next step forward?
With regards, Jay B.
en:User:ILVI ilooy.gaon@gmail.com
On 7/7/05, ilooy ilooy.gaon@gmail.com wrote:
What is the next step forward?
The next step is to find some people willing to pledge their support to the proposal. They need to be people who can write in this language and are committed to editing there if the wiki is set up. These people should sign up at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Ladino
Angela.
2005/7/7, Angela beesley@gmail.com:
On 7/7/05, ilooy ilooy.gaon@gmail.com wrote:
What is the next step forward?
The next step is to find some people willing to pledge their support to the proposal. They need to be people who can write in this language and are committed to editing there if the wiki is set up. These people should sign up at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Ladino
Angela.
Thanks for your answer Angela, I have made a listing on that page and it has been updated and links added.
There is enough interest that would get the project underway. When I started with the Galego wiki I was the only person adding articles until the interest caught on and now it is enjoying some good additions, same with the Interlingua wiki which more so on the Wiktionary wiki is also enjoying some good additions.
I don't recall ever having to sign up on the meta in order to get the sub-domain going, but if this is the new procedure then it is already underway. What would be the next step after this?
I'd definitely think that a wiki for Ladino would enjoy some good steady growth. And very importantly it would give a forum for people who are very devoted to keeping this language in current use. It would be a plus for the language and a plus for Wikipedia.
Would a message to Wikitech-l also be sent or would it be enough to have made these steps so far in order to have the two sub-domains set up? Since the momentum is building and I've been corresponding with other Ladino speakers about a Wikipedia and a Wiktionary in Ladino it is very important to me that a good impression is made right off, this would be good for the Ladino speaking community and good P.R. for Wikipedia also.
With regards, and appreciation for your response to my messages, Jay B.
I don't recall ever having to sign up on the meta in order to get the sub-domain going, but if this is the new procedure then it is already underway. What would be the next step after this?
For natural languages, once there are five supporters and no objections from anyone, you can ask a developer (via wikitech-l or on IRC) to create it.
Angela
Hi Boris,
You I figured that it should have been both...
The spelling is actually based on the spelling used some decades ago when LS used to be an official language of the regions (in 1500) it was created by Ron ("Reinhard Hahn") as far as I know and later there were many changes in the spelling which made it impossible to actually stick to using that writing system. Like for ex. ey changed to ei, and changed back to ey, uu changed to oe and then again back to uu, (die Deutsche u-klänge)...
The y's were initially used to make it look more "trendy and hip" but people who used it said it looked too much like (Westlauwers-)Frisian... the v's are probably used because in Dutch the f and the v are pronounced the same and where used as a compromise so that it wouldn't look too much like German.
The future tense in "brüün würden" is the same as in Dutch: "bruin worden" but it seems to me that both languages are completely different. Twents would most probably be the closest you'd ever get to GLS.
Servien
P.S. can't complain about our neighbours, sie sind gute Leute! ;-) (only some OLD people still don't, but as we say in DLS that's just: "ouwe koeien uut de sloot haolen" [taking old cows out of the ditch] {bringing up old and irrelevant stories.})
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
corrigendum: in my third sentence "but" should be "both"
wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 17:50:54:
Hi Servien!
Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattdüütsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> kümmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "höyl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "wöyrden" also omitted here> sünnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattdüütsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "ü" or an "u" there?) for "kümmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
Boris
Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system: As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text: If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look, but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography: Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna actually ken the leid. (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ... would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ... and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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On 7/5/05, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com wrote:
The y's were initially used to make it look more "trendy and hip" but people who used it said it looked too much like (Westlauwers-)Frisian... the v's are probably used because in Dutch the f and the v are pronounced the same and where used as a compromise so that it wouldn't look too much like German.
just a small intermezo, in correct Dutch pronounciation the f and the v are 2 different sounds. Only some parts of the Netherlands mash the 2 together in one sound.
Finne
Hi,
Question: Maybe the name nds-nl.wikipedia is kind of long and suggests it would only be for the Netherlands while it's for everyone who would understand the DLS writing form better. Would it be better to use ns.wikipedia or nsk.wikipedia? (abbreviation for Nedersaksisch)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
corrigendum: in my third sentence "but" should be "both"
wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 17:50:54:
Hi Servien!
Thanks for informing me about that. I must admit, I've never heard or read about ANS. So, like the name suggests that's supposed to work in but countries? A good idea for sure. However (and that's a big however), as far as I can tell noboby in Germany ever writes that way. Just have a look a websites from Germany written in nds. You won't ever find all those y's and v's there. Neither in Plattdüütsch literature you can find in book stores in Northern Germany. While that ANS spelling system might be a good thing in theory, I think you just couldn't re-educate thousands of people in order to have one single nds Wikipedia. But I guess I don't have to convince _you_ anyway.
Thanks for the sample phrase. Here's my try:
"Wenn <or "As"> en Minsch nich faken noog ruut <"na buten" would also work> kümmt ward he ook nich <equivalent for "höyl" would be "heel" but is usually not used here> bruun <future tense "wöyrden" also omitted here> sünnern blievt witt. <Note: I can`t really think of a word for "pale" now - you could possibly take "bleek" (without "witt" in that case) but I'm not 100% sure here>
Even though I have tried to stick to your wording as closely as possible, I think the differences are quite tremendous here. They go far beyond spelling. What was most striking to me was the use of the future tense in your sample phrase. The Plattdüütsch I know just doesn't have that - just like in spoken High German where that tense is not used either. But also the word "mer" (that's like "maar" in Dutch, isn't it?) wouldn`t be understood by readers in Germany. Other differences are less severe, of course. E. g. "genog" instead of "noog" would surely be understood, especially since we have "genug" in German. But take "kump" (do you speak an "ü" or an "u" there?) for "kümmt" for example or even "ie/y" instead of "he". If the decision about a Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia were in my hands and I had to make that decision solely based on this one example - I would most definately create it! Not because I want to separate Dutch and German wikipedians - it's the 21st century and thank God we're good neighbours - but only of the language facts.
Boris
Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 15:33:43:
Hi Boris,
The orthography used in that text seems to me is de Algemeyne Neddersassische Schryvwys'... I also used to use it, but people don't seem to understand it quite as well in the Netherlands and Germany, I must honestly say I understand the ANS writing system way better then the one you used at the bottom (of course there are words which are completely unknown to me...)
Here is a sample of DLS in ANS writing system: As 'n mins ny vaak genog buyten kump sal y ok ny höyl bruyn wöyrden mer sal y spyrwit blyven.
And here in the traditional one: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buut'n kump zal ie ok nie heul bruun wurd'n mer zal ie spierwit bliev'n/blyv'n.
This is the one I use: As 'n mins nie vaok genog buten kump sal ie ok nie heul bruun wurden mer sal ie spierwit blyven. (it's a mixture of the traditional one and a little from ANS, I don't use the apostrophes because like in the word blyv'n is pronounced as "bliem" and this is confusing because bak'n [bake] is also pronounced differently like "bakng".)
(Translation of the text: If a person doesn't go outside much then he won't have a tanned look, but will be pale white.)
Servien
2005/7/5, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de:
Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch.
Ok "Patentplatt" or "Fernsehplatt" (TV Platt) as it is called sometimes - that really seems to happen. I think that word is less misleading. Of course, different people will have different views on what is unique and what is not. Languages like German or French have had established unified standards for centuries, so there is hardly ever any doubt what's linguistically correct or not at de: or fr:. Obviously, at nds: you don`t have that degree of unambiguousness. I would really appreciate any efforts to improve the linguistic quality of the Low Saxon Wikipedia. After all, it is still at an early stage. Unfortunetaly, I can't really help here for, being a native in High German, I'd probably only worsen the problem of "Patentplatt".
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography: Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un > "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Where does that come from? The vocabulary is mostly alright. But the spelling looks awfully articifial to me. Never before have I seen anyone using "y" in written Platt. And why should you write "v" when you say "f". Just too make look "less German"? Also, the diphtong "ou" might somehow reflect the pronounciation but is certainly not usually used in Northern Germany. And why should one want to use "kk" instead of "ck"? Just because it's written that way in the Netherlands?? And why is there an apostrophe in " Elv' "? Just because the word is "Elbe" in High German. Complete nonsense, in my humble opinion. I don't want to comment comment on the "real Platt" word "kuntray" but the "I" at the beginning of the last sentence is either Bavarian or English but surely not Platt.
Coming from the "Ünner-Elv'" myself, let me try it:
Liek so kannst dat in'n poor Dialekten vun de Ünnerelv (in Hamborg un ümto) ook seggen. "Wat" kann dor in düsse/sükse Fällen liek as "dat" un "de" bruken. Ick/Ik do dat ook faken, man tomeest wenn ick/ik snack.
Hmm...
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 05.07.05 08:34:13:
Hi Boris,
I'm a bit perplexed as this accusation has been made by a number of people on Lowlands-l, most of the accusers being native speakers of Low German, and at least one (RF Hahn) also speaking Missingsch. Ahh wait, I see here the accusation is that it's in "Patentplatt", which is "based on Missingsch".
Accusations: "Unalike the Laich Saxon edeetion whase warkers dinna actually ken the leid. (It's oor Jonny's pet plaint, his windmill faes, an that richtly.)"
"It doesn't help that language competency is wanting in the current WikiPlatt team. Those folks are enthusiastic, and I laud that. But they don't know the language well enough. Much or most of it is "Patentplatt" (based on Missingsch), i.e. invented on the basis of German. I am not at all opposed to introducing technical neologisms, but there needs to be first of all a firm grasp of the basic language, the grammar and the authentic idiom."
Information on Patentplatt: "The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers ... would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant ... and it would be even larger if it included those who ... can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt)."
This is very concerning, and is clearly a major factor in the difficulty people from the Netherlands are having reading NDS.wiki. I just dashed off an e-mail to Ron to remind him that he is always welcome to "fix" the Patentplatt, because of course it's Wikipedia.
Obviously, this isn't the only factor, and I'm not sure if it's even the greatest factor. But, I feel that we should explore that.
A sample of 'real' Low Saxon written in "AGS" orthography:
Lyk so kanst dat in 'n paar dialekten vun de Ünner-Elv' (in Hamborg un kuntray) ook seggen. "Wat" kan daar in sükse vellen lyk as "dat" un "dey" bruken. I dou dat ook vaken, man tou meyrst wen ik snakken dou.
Hmm...
Best Mark
On 04/07/05, Boris Lohnzweiger BorisLohnzweiger@web.de wrote:
Hi Mark!
I was quite perplexed to read that they write Missingsch in the Low Saxon Wikipedia. So I just went there and checked out ten random pages. Having grown up in a rural area near Hamburg, it`s easy for me tell apart Low Saxon from Missingsch. The whole issue seems to be very exaggerated. All ten articles I've read were without a doubt in Plattdüütsch. Of course single articles might not be - I haven`t checked the whole Wikipedia. However, one can note that depending on the subject of the article the share of words that very closely resemble standard German words or are even identical (in writing !) is sometimes quite high. But this is a usual phenomenon in Low Saxon. Generally speaking, the more scientific a text gets the closer it comes to Hochdeutsch. Surely, sometimes this can lead to the fact that certain passages of articles don`t look too much like Platt. This can been seen very clearly in this article: http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptilia . It has two sections, both written by the same author, as far as I can tell. The first ("Norddüütsche Slangen") is very "pure" Low Saxon. The second ("Systematik") looks very much like standard German, due to its topic. I think even without knowing both languages in detail you can easily tell the difference. But this is not to be confused with Missingsch. You just couldn`t say that differently or more "real", if you want.
I don`t who actually brought up this Missingsch issue (native speaker? hobby linguist?). But as a matter of fact, nds-WP is written in Low Saxon. If individual pages are in other languages (which to some degree happens in many Wikipedias) the guys at nds can certainly cope with that. However, I disbelieve that this part of the reason native speakers of Low Saxon in the Netherlands ask for a separate WP.
Boris
Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com, wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org schrieb am 04.07.05 01:38:06:
Also, it seems to me that Walter, Wouter, and Servien are intent on ignoring the issue of nds.wiki being in Missingsch rather than real nds. But this is a real issue, and we need to deal with it. I have personally received complaints from members of lowlands-l about nds.wiki being in Missingsch, which is not actually Low Saxon but rather a "contact variety".
Surely, mutual intelligiblity would be increased very much if this huge problem were solved. I'm sure one of the main problems is the fact that it's written in Missingsch.
Perhaps before starting nds-nl.wiki, somebody should start real-nds.wiki, and after that we can see if things are any better.
Mark
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