First, Wikipedians on the Chinese WP would like to thank all who supported the presence of Chinese-speaking administrators.
The admins have a question:
We thought as an admin, one can revert vandalism much more quickly, with a click of a button or two. But we found no such a thing, and still have to revert by the old way, i.e., History -> click on old version -> edit -> save.
I once heard mav said, as an admin, that he can revert in 5 seconds or something, but the four-step way takes _at least_ 15 seconds, assuming you have cable and WP isn't slowed down.
Thanks for answering.
Mench
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On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Menchi Zh-En WP wrote:
First, Wikipedians on the Chinese WP would like to thank all who supported the presence of Chinese-speaking administrators.
The admins have a question:
We thought as an admin, one can revert vandalism much more quickly, with a click of a button or two. But we found no such a thing, and still have to revert by the old way, i.e., History -> click on old version -> edit -> save.
Should be a 'rollback' (or localized name?) link in the user contributions display, next to any edit that is the most recent edit on that article.
If it's not there, let me know.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber vibber@aludra.usc.edu writes:
Should be a 'rollback' (or localized name?) link in the user contributions display, next to any edit that is the most recent edit on that article.
Is such a 'rollback' button reserved for so called sysops only? If "yes", I wouldd be a second class editor (and all the non-sysops, too) -- no good.
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Brion Vibber vibber@aludra.usc.edu writes:
Should be a 'rollback' (or localized name?) link in the user contributions display, next to any edit that is the most recent edit on that article.
Is such a 'rollback' button reserved for so called sysops only? If "yes", I wouldd be a second class editor (and all the non-sysops, too) -- no good.
Yes. But it doesn't do anything more than any user -- logged in or not -- can do with three extra clicks.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com writes:
Yes. But it doesn't do anything more than any user -- logged in or not -- can do with three extra clicks.
I as a regular user feel be punished. Or say it in different words: it's a sad story that I cannot help fixing bad edits without three extra clicks.
On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 07:48:30AM +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com writes:
Yes. But it doesn't do anything more than any user -- logged in or not -- can do with three extra clicks.
I as a regular user feel be punished. Or say it in different words: it's a sad story that I cannot help fixing bad edits without three extra clicks.
That's easy to fix. You've proven not to be a vandal, so you can become a sysop. Any objections anyone?
Regards,
JeLuF
Jens Frank JeLuF@gmx.de writes:
That's easy to fix. You've proven not to be a vandal, so you can become a sysop. Any objections anyone?
No, that's not what I want ;-) Such a change would not fix the problem for all the other (anonymous) editors. Perhaps it's just the title ("sysop") I don't like. I would agree with something called "advanced editor" or "senior editor", though.
Karl-
Jens Frank JeLuF@gmx.de writes:
That's easy to fix. You've proven not to be a vandal, so you can become a sysop. Any objections anyone?
No, that's not what I want ;-) Such a change would not fix the problem for all the other (anonymous) editors.
Ugh. Rollback ability for sysops is there to *create* an imbalance of power, i.e. to reduce the cost for sysops to undo vandalism. Giving this ability to everyone would defeat the whole point -- vandals could react just as quickly as we could revert their edits. The question is: Is this privilege likely to be abused? It's not - sysops are not allowed to engage in edit wars any more than everyone else.
Perhaps it's just the title ("sysop") I don't like. I would agree with something called "advanced editor" or "senior editor", though.
That would be highly misleading. Sysops are *not* editors, they are not responsible for moderating content, they merely deal with vandalism and carry out the requests of the users (e.g. votes for deletion).
Regards,
Erik
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On Saturday, 14th June, 2003, Erik Moeller wrote:
Karl-
[Snip]
Perhaps it's just the title ("sysop") I don't like. I would agree with something called "advanced editor" or "senior editor", though.
That would be highly misleading. Sysops are *not* editors, they are not responsible for moderating content,
Agreed. And the semantics of the word are apparent from the explanations already available on the Wikipedia; changing it because people can get confused would set a precedent for leading the Wikipedia into the ground with name changes - this is, after all, English, the language with (perhaps?) the widest vocabulary of all. Why stop with 'sysop', when we could change other words, such as 'developer' - doesn't this give connotations of people developing articles to you?
they merely deal with vandalism and carry out the requests of the users (e.g. votes for deletion).
Indeed. I think, given that they 'operate' the anti-vandalism 'system', we should concatenate the two terms, so that they should be called, err, 'system operators'. Oh, wait...
[Snip]
- -- James D. Forrester mailto:jon@eh.org | mailto:csvla@dcs.warwick.ac.uk mailto:jamesdforrester@hotmail.com | mailto:james@jdforrester.org
Erik Moeller schrieb:
Karl-
Perhaps it's just the title ("sysop") I don't like. I would agree with something called "advanced editor" or "senior editor", though.
That would be highly misleading. Sysops are *not* editors, they are not responsible for moderating content, they merely deal with vandalism and carry out the requests of the users (e.g. votes for deletion).
I already proposed "caretaker" or "plumber" on the German list, but nobody responded. Maybe someone else can come up with a nice name which is associated with physical work (that is a burden and not joyful).
Kurt
Kurt Jansson wrote:
I already proposed "caretaker" or "plumber" on the German list, but nobody responded. Maybe someone else can come up with a nice name which is associated with physical work (that is a burden and not joyful).
garbage-handler ;)
... since we clean up the trash!
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
No, that's not what I want ;-) Such a change would not fix the problem for all the other (anonymous) editors. Perhaps it's just the title ("sysop") I don't like. I would agree with something called "advanced editor" or "senior editor", though.
Well, the "sysop" is a code-word used in the DB. As well as "developer" or "bot".
How that's called inside the Wiki depends of all those interested users, no reason exists not to change the 'title'. We can use e.g. 'slave' (annonym user), 'folk' (reg. Users), 'public servant'* (sysop) etc. or something else. Or "clueless editor", "advanced editor", "senior editor" as you seems to prefere ;)
Don't bother about this small details.
*I miss the Translation for the german 'Arsch vom Dienst'.
On Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 11:09:55AM +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Jens Frank JeLuF@gmx.de writes:
That's easy to fix. You've proven not to be a vandal, so you can become a sysop. Any objections anyone?
No, that's not what I want ;-) Such a change would not fix the problem for all the other (anonymous) editors. Perhaps it's just the title ("sysop") I don't like. I would agree with something called "advanced editor" or "senior editor", though.
On irc, they are called the regulars. But whatever you call it, it has a small touch of elitism. But I fear it has to. Some features are very usefull, but can also be easily abused. The "regular crew" should have a little advantage against the vandals. That's why they get some tools the unknown user doesn't get. In the past, "move this page" was reserved to sysops. It was found useful, and later, the possible harm was considered minor. So it was made available to any logged in user. Not logged in users don't have this feature.
Reverting anything in an User's Contribution list can drive people mad. It's a very hard thing to do. Using the revert-feature, I can undo a whole day's work of a user in less than a minute, generating a very high system load and lots of new versions in the database.
I think this feature should be reserved for proven non-vandals. This could be done by a 100-edits-rule or something, but the current agreed upon procedure is to have a four-level hierarchy:
- Not logged in: Can edit. - Logged in: Can edit, move, make minor edits. - Op/Regular/Senior: Can edit, move, make minor edits, delete, revert automatically, ban not logged in users. - Developer: Can edit, move, make minor edits, delete, revert automatically, ban any user, permanently delete, change the software and mess up everything to a degree I don't want to imagine.
There is a fifth attribute, "bot", that's the same as a logged in user whose edits don't appear in recent changes.
I personally think this are enough levels. Logged in users who have proven to be reliable shall become Op/Regular/Senior and have all those features available. No Salami-tactic.
JeLuF
Jens Frank JeLuF@gmx.de writes:
- Not logged in: Can edit.
- Logged in: Can edit, move, make minor edits.
- Op/Regular/Senior: Can edit, move, make minor edits, delete, revert automatically, ban not logged in users.
- Developer: Can edit, move, make minor edits, delete, revert automatically, ban any user, permanently delete, change the software and mess up everything to a degree I don't want to imagine.
There is a fifth attribute, "bot", that's the same as a logged in user whose edits don't appear in recent changes.
Thanks for the overview! And there is the direct SQL access, AFAIK.
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com writes:
Yes. But it doesn't do anything more than any user -- logged in or not -- can do with three extra clicks.
I as a regular user feel be punished. Or say it in different words: it's a sad story that I cannot help fixing bad edits without three extra clicks.
And I (as sysop@de) can say: I'm usually faster with the 4 click method -- because reverting implies looking at the diffs, and before I start to remember where I can find this ''rollback''-button, I start editing the diff, which is the page I currently view.
There are exacly 3 things a sysop can do of interest:
1.) Removing an arcicle / Restoring a removed arcticle: I think thats a good idea to restrict this function, and it is not very important. Every reason for a deletiion can be solved by a normal user much better by rewriting the article or extend it. It's for wikipedia a much better solution than deleting it. That leaves misspelled titles which should be removed - <irony>it's a great valuable add on for this supirior sysop class</irony>
2.) Editing protected pages. From 35327 pages in the german Wikipedia are exactly: total: 16 protected
4 log Files (File/remove) 5 new versions of MainPage (don't ask me why - I think that's a copy and paste error) 1 Homepage of a sysop (don't ask me why thats protected - I propose he found the button once;) 2 Pages in Wikipedia-Namespace (only one of it needs the protection IMHO) 4 Pages in acricle-namespace, one of it the MainPage.
Thats not very much, if you remove the ''don't ask me why's'', and the log files, I think you agree that's ok if they are protected, that's 5 (five) pages. What a revolt for 5 pages.
3.) Database Reuests. I need them as a developer, not for my sysop activity. And normaly there's ''developer'' as additional admin class, for this.
4.) Ban IP's. We both agree about the value of this feature ( 0, 00 EUR).
Sorry but I realy don't see why a normal user feels punished about that.
Thomas Corell wrote:
And I (as sysop@de) can say: I'm usually faster with the 4 click method -- because reverting implies looking at the diffs, and before I start to
Talking of diffs, what is your opinion about the current "(cur) (last)" links in the history display? Is it intuitive and productive? It is different from the original UseModWiki (example 2, below), but it is also different from the new UseModWiki (3, below).
For a different project (online proofreading, not wiki), I implemented the new UseModWiki (3) based on RCS, e.g. http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/rc.pike?action=history&src=nfch/0412
Does the current Wikipedia model (example 1, below) have any obvious advantages over the new UseModWiki (3)?
1) Current Wikipedia, e.g. http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Shadow_government&action=his...
(cur) (last) date .. user (cur) (last) date .. user
2) Original UseModWiki, e.g. http://hu.wikipedia.com/wiki.cgi?action=history&id=HomePage
Version 17 View Diff .. date by user
where View shows that version, and Diff makes a diff towards the current version.
3) New UseModWiki, e.g. http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?action=history&id=SocialSoftware
[_] [_] Version 17 .. date by user [_] [_] Version 16 .. date by user COMPARE
Where you mark the radio buttons for any two versions you want to compare, and then click COMPARE.
Lars Aronsson wrote:
Thomas Corell wrote:
And I (as sysop@de) can say: I'm usually faster with the 4 click method -- because reverting implies looking at the diffs, and before I start to
Talking of diffs, what is your opinion about the current "(cur) (last)" links in the history display? Is it intuitive and productive?
I have no problem with it, if I have to look at a diff I usually need the last diff (95% I guess). And if that do not help (don't shows what i'm looking for) I go 'down'. Comparing three version before with current version, may be interessting, but I can't remember used it. But there are others working diffrent than me, I'm sure about that. If there is the possibiity, it will be used.
First impression I got about comparing Wikipedia to the new UseModWiki, was that the radio buttons would look well in the 'cologe blue' skin(wikipedia), the current Wikipedia (cur) model fits better in the standart skin. Thats only a 'style' think, nothing to do with funcionality, becouse the radio buttons look a bit more 'modern'.
Does the current Wikipedia model (example 1, below) have any obvious advantages over the new UseModWiki (3)?
No realy advantages, IMHO. What I realy think about as a problem, are these long 'lines'. I only get diffs for a complete paragraph and have to look for an change like 'forx' -> 'for' in an paragraph with 20 lines, thats usually stupid work.
Lars Aronsson wrote in part:
- New UseModWiki, e.g.
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?action=history&id=SocialSoftware
[_] [_] Version 17 .. date by user [_] [_] Version 16 .. date by user COMPARE
Where you mark the radio buttons for any two versions you want to compare, and then click COMPARE.
Ooh, ooh! I want that!
Now I do it by cutting and pasting portions of URLs.
-- Toby
--- Thomas Corell T.Corell@t-online.de wrote:
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Brion Vibber brion@pobox.com writes:
Yes. But it doesn't do anything more than any user
-- logged in or not
-- can do with three extra clicks.
I as a regular user feel be punished.
I understand very well you feel punished as a regular user. I feel that when I look at the POV english main page news :-) I feel that when a personal page stays listed for 2/3 weeks before being deleted. Imho, everyone should have the right to delete pages in her user space :-) I feel that when I can't rename an article just because there is a redirect with no history under the name I want to give to the new article :-) I feel that when I can't look at the content of a very recently deleted article :-)
And *I* is not really *I* here :-)
I basically never used the rolled back feature. I prefer to check the content first.
I always look in the history of blanked articles, even if the blanking was done by a trusted non-sysop, because I always past the content of the vandalized article in the comment box by hand.
On the french wiki, basically no pages are protected; So, it is unnecessary to be sysop to edit them.
On that topic, could someone give us a query to list "protected pages" ?
We avoid banning ips.
Our pb on the fr wiki right now, is not more sysops. It is more control. We had many new users recently. It is very hard to welcome all of them and teach all of them. I have been updating the welcome pages recently, made a poor welcome message to earn time. Alvaro is currently polling newbies to try to fix a good and informative welcome. Aoineko made us an "howto" for images. I think we need a more proper translation of the copyrights stuff. Plus a better FAQ, explaining the terminology, and what is offered in the special pages (Tarquin, could not you help there ?). We are loosing a lot of time giving that information of an individual basis. Which implies additional work to fix things afterwards. And additional work for sysops in particular to clean up after. This is currently the issue, not a sysop being superior to a regular user. But this is french specific. Not true on en wiki.
Could someone also give me a tip how to know precisely the list of articles in one given space (meta pages more exactly ?)
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Anthere wrote:
On that topic, could someone give us a query to list "protected pages" ?
SELECT cur_title,cur_restrictions,cur_namespace from cur where cur_restrictions!=''
Could someone also give me a tip how to know precisely the list of articles in one given space (meta pages more exactly ?)
SELECT count(cur_title) from cur where cur_namespace=4
I hope I understood your questions the right way. (e.g. meta -> Wikipedia: - namespace).
--- Thomas Corell T.Corell@t-online.de wrote:
Anthere wrote:
On that topic, could someone give us a query to
list
"protected pages" ?
SELECT cur_title,cur_restrictions,cur_namespace from cur where cur_restrictions!=''
this is the right one yes.
So, we have protected * 1 upload log page * 5 deletion log pages (current and history) * Aoineko user page * most wanted page * FAQ administration (a mistake I guess)
Could someone also give me a tip how to know
precisely
the list of articles in one given space (meta
pages
more exactly ?)
SELECT count(cur_title) from cur where cur_namespace=4
I hope I understood your questions the right way. (e.g. meta -> Wikipedia:
- namespace).
euh, no. This is the right namespace I think (334 ?)
But, this is giving the number of articles. What I would like is the names of these pages. I think perhaps many of them are long lost.
------
Please, I also would like a query giving me the name of users, who have made at least n articles (say 200) and been there for at least m months (say 3).
Thank you very much for your help smurf (isnot that the translation of schtroumpf ?)
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Anthere wrote:
SELECT count(cur_title) from cur where cur_namespace=4
euh, no. This is the right namespace I think (334 ?)
4 is Wikipedia (the others you can find in Language??.php)
But, this is giving the number of articles. What I would like is the names of these pages. I think perhaps many of them are long lost.
Sorry I missed that. This should help you:
select cur_title from cur where cur_namespace=4 order by cur_title
Please, I also would like a query giving me the name of users, who have made at least n articles (say 200) and been there for at least m months (say 3).
That's usually not possible, because simple sysops don't have the right to read these values (user_touched), thats a matter of data security and privacy.
Which articles do you mean with "have made at least n articles"? New ones, edited ones?
Thank you very much for your help smurf (isnot that the translation of schtroumpf ?)
Whatever "schtroumpf " means *puzzle*. It's the english translation of the german word "Schlumpf" and here is an example picture:
http://www.weltderkobolde.de/PapaschlumpfmitBuch.html (Wikipedia compatible version of me ;)
--- Thomas Corell T.Corell@t-online.de wrote:
Anthere wrote: Sorry I missed that. This should help you:
select cur_title from cur where cur_namespace=4 order by cur_title
Yes. Perfect. Thank you
Please, I also would like a query giving me the
name
of users, who have made at least n articles (say
and been there for at least m months (say 3).
That's usually not possible, because simple sysops don't have the right to read these values (user_touched), thats a matter of data security and privacy.
Ah ? If you say so. But...I don't get it really. What I asked is basically * when the user made his/her first edit * the number of edits done
These two informations are retrievable from the user:contributions. I can't figure why you say these infos are private, since absolutely available to anyone ?!?
That is just as for most queries made available to us. Done on some infos public to anyone. But retrievable in a few seconds instead of hours. I can't see what is private here...
Which articles do you mean with "have made at least n articles"? New ones, edited ones?
I want to find a way to detect those who have been here quite a while, have edited quite a lot, as these are likely to know and understand the wiki process. If these have no history of being difficult editors or potentially difficult sysops, it might be interesting to ask them if they want to be sysops.
I think that was part of what Brion was proposing at http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_details_special_page
No ?
Thank you very much for your help smurf (isnot
that
the translation of schtroumpf ?)
Whatever "schtroumpf " means *puzzle*. It's the english translation of the german word "Schlumpf" and here is an example picture:
http://www.weltderkobolde.de/PapaschlumpfmitBuch.html
(Wikipedia compatible version of me ;)
Right. That is exactly what I thought. This is a schtroumpf.
A schtroumpf is not a puzzle (should not be a puzzle), it is the name given by Peyo to his little blue guys :-)
Like here http://www.bdland.com/cgi-bin/collectaff.cgi?caC=26
Peyo was a belgium man I believe
Thanks anyway
Anthere
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Anthere anthere6@yahoo.com writes:
I basically never used the rolled back feature. I prefer to check the content first.
Good. Let's remove the rollback feature completely, it looks dangerous. Yes, that's meant seriously by me.
--- Karl Eichwalder ke@gnu.franken.de wrote:
Good. Let's remove the rollback feature completely, it looks dangerous. Yes, that's meant seriously by me.
That's ridiculous. If you don't want to use it, don't use it, but there's no need to remove something that other people use frequently.
Zoe
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