Dear fellow list subscribers,
I just requested a North Frisian wikipedia. As the instructions on top of the requests page demand, I am mentioning this request on the mailing list now.
According to Aliter from the Westlauwer Frisian wikipedia, the creation of Wikipedias for all three Frisian variants was on his and some others' agendas, but didn't have a very high priority. As the Seeltersk wikipedia is now in the early stage of development, I decided to request a Wikipedia for the last remaining Frisian language. Please do not expect its short time creation, unless unexpectedly some native speaker comes up doing a lot of work.
I am well aware of its huge dialectical differences and we will certainly have to take appropriate measurements to cope with these.
Regards, Wouter
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Hi Wouter,
Are you talking about this language? http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=frr
This info is from the 15th edition of the SIL's Ethnologue. The 3-letter language code used in this edition will be almost identical to the upcoming ISO/DIS 639-3 which has passed the first round of balloting to attain the status of Draft International Standard.
From http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/introduction.asp "The three-letter language identifiers in this edition of the Ethnologue are thus the codes of ISO/DIS 639-3."
I would suggest to use the SIL's newest language code when necessary (and before ISO 639-3 is finalized). So http://frr.wikipedia.org/ (?)
best Pektiong
On May 8, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Wouter Steenbeek wrote:
Dear fellow list subscribers,
I just requested a North Frisian wikipedia. As the instructions on top of the requests page demand, I am mentioning this request on the mailing list now.
According to Aliter from the Westlauwer Frisian wikipedia, the creation of Wikipedias for all three Frisian variants was on his and some others' agendas, but didn't have a very high priority. As the Seeltersk wikipedia is now in the early stage of development, I decided to request a Wikipedia for the last remaining Frisian language. Please do not expect its short time creation, unless unexpectedly some native speaker comes up doing a lot of work.
I am well aware of its huge dialectical differences and we will certainly have to take appropriate measurements to cope with these.
Regards, Wouter
Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Speaking of 639-3: I, for one, hate it.
They should've taken more time to get input from people. I would submit corrections, but I know there is no point as there are so many of them I can spot alone, it's just not worth it.
For one, Havasupai, Hualapai, and Yavapai are officially considered separate languages and have different written forms. I can tell you from experience that, while mutually intelligible to a certain degree, I would not consider them to form a single language.
Similarly, some people may want a code for Voro, which the Ethnologue says is a dialect of Estonian but which Voro speakers say is a language in its own right.
There are also languages which are totally excluded - I can't think of an example right now, but I noticed some.
In the meantime, they should add a language-family code to 639-2 for Austronesian: there is none currently that covers Formosan languages. Some will tell you Malayo-Polynesian, but this is simply incorrect: Formosan and Malayo-Polynesian are both _subbranches_ of Austronesian.
Mark
On 08/05/05, Tân Pektiong pektiong@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Wouter,
Are you talking about this language? http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=frr
This info is from the 15th edition of the SIL's Ethnologue. The 3-letter language code used in this edition will be almost identical to the upcoming ISO/DIS 639-3 which has passed the first round of balloting to attain the status of Draft International Standard.
From http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/introduction.asp "The three-letter language identifiers in this edition of the Ethnologue are thus the codes of ISO/DIS 639-3."
I would suggest to use the SIL's newest language code when necessary (and before ISO 639-3 is finalized). So http://frr.wikipedia.org/ (?)
best Pektiong
On May 8, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Wouter Steenbeek wrote:
Dear fellow list subscribers,
I just requested a North Frisian wikipedia. As the instructions on top of the requests page demand, I am mentioning this request on the mailing list now.
According to Aliter from the Westlauwer Frisian wikipedia, the creation of Wikipedias for all three Frisian variants was on his and some others' agendas, but didn't have a very high priority. As the Seeltersk wikipedia is now in the early stage of development, I decided to request a Wikipedia for the last remaining Frisian language. Please do not expect its short time creation, unless unexpectedly some native speaker comes up doing a lot of work.
I am well aware of its huge dialectical differences and we will certainly have to take appropriate measurements to cope with these.
Regards, Wouter
Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Hi Wouter,
Are you talking about this language? http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=frr
This info is from the 15th edition of the SIL's Ethnologue. The 3-letter language code used in this edition will be almost identical to the upcoming ISO/DIS 639-3 which has passed the first round of balloting to attain the status of Draft International Standard.
From http://www.ethnologue.com/ethno_docs/introduction.asp "The three-letter language identifiers in this edition of the Ethnologue are thus the codes of ISO/DIS 639-3."
I would suggest to use the SIL's newest language code when necessary (and before ISO 639-3 is finalized). So http://frr.wikipedia.org/ (?)
best Pektiong
On May 8, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Wouter Steenbeek wrote:
On May 8, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Wouter Steenbeek wrote:
Dear fellow list subscribers,
I just requested a North Frisian wikipedia. As the instructions on top of the requests page demand, I am mentioning this request on the mailing list now.
According to Aliter from the Westlauwer Frisian wikipedia, the creation of Wikipedias for all three Frisian variants was on his and some others' agendas, but didn't have a very high priority. As the Seeltersk wikipedia is now in the early stage of development, I decided to request a Wikipedia for the last remaining Frisian language. Please do not expect its short time creation, unless unexpectedly some native speaker comes up doing a lot of work.
I am well aware of its huge dialectical differences and we will certainly have to take appropriate measurements to cope with these.
Regards, Wouter
Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wouter,
I have a major issue with this request.
That is: Do you have /any/ native speakers who have expressed interest?
Also, I am a firm believer in North Frisian dialectal solidarity. I do not think there can or should be a single North Frisian Wikipedia. We should start with one for Mainland North Frisian, then we can have another for Söl`ring, one for Ferring, Oomram, etc.
Now, I will lift a quote from an e-mail in response to me on "lowlands-l" regarding North Frisian:
//begin quote// You and I and other language "geeks" (and I mean this in the best possible way of course) would not find the North Frisian varieties all that different from each other. We would think they are fairly easily mutually intelligible. However, apparently the average person that not think so, and this seems to be mainly because some of the shifts, especially vowel shifts, are rather dramatic. Some people talk about "Frisian *languages*."
Mutual intelligibility is fairly easy between the North Frisian mainland varieties that developed from a variety imported in the 9th or 10th century, possibly with an earlier North Frisian substrate (later developing into insular varieties):
"Shine, old Moon, shine!" Häwelmann yelled, but the moon was nowhere to be seen and the stars weren't either; they had all gone to bed already.
Goesharde/Hoorning: „Jocht, uule moune, jocht!" biilked Hääwelmoon, ors e moune waas närngs to schüns än da steere ok ai; ja weern al aal to beede gingen.
Bökingharde/Mooring: „Jucht, üülje moune, jucht!" biiljked Hääwelmoon, ouers e moune wus nargne tu schüns än e stääre uk ai; ja wjarn ål åltumååle tu beed lim.
Wiedingharde: „Ljocht, uuile moone, ljocht!" biilked Hääwelmuon, män e moone was näärgen to schüns än uk e steere ai; jä würn al altomoale to beerd gingen.
Tideland Islands (Halligen): „Jaacht, uale mööne, jaacht!" bölked Hääwelmoon, man de mööne woas näärngs to siinen än de steere uk ee; jä weern al altomaole to beed giangen.
The insular varieties developed from a variet that was imported to the area in about the 7th century, that on the mainland had come to be overlaid by another importation (now Continental North Frisian):
Isle of Heligoland: „Lochte, ool Muun, lochte!" rüp Heäwelman, oawers de Muun wear naarni tu sin'n en uk de Steern ni; dja wear al allemoal tu Baad gingen.
Isle of Oomram/Amrum: „Locht, dü ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man a muun wiar nochhuaren tu sen an a stäären uk ei; jo wiar al altumaal tu baad gingen.
Isle of Feer/Föhr: „Locht, ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man a muun wiar nochhuaren tu sen an a stäären uk ei; jo wiar al altermaal tu baad gingen.
Isle of Söl'/Sylt: „Ljucht, ual Muun, ljucht!" skriilt Häwelmann, man di Muun wiar narigen tö sen en uk di Stiaren ek; ja wiar al altermaal tö Ber gingen.
Compare these with Westerlauwer ("West") Frisian:
"Skyn, âld moanne, skyn!" skreaude Häwelmann, mar de moanne wie nearne te sjen, en de stjerren ek net; hja wiene allegearre al op bêd gien. //end quote//
At the _very best_, there could maybe be a Wikipedia for "Insular North Frisian" and one for "Peninsular North Frisian", but according to native speakers they are mutually unintelligible enough to deserve their own separate literatures.
Mark
On 08/05/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
Dear fellow list subscribers,
I just requested a North Frisian wikipedia. As the instructions on top of the requests page demand, I am mentioning this request on the mailing list now.
According to Aliter from the Westlauwer Frisian wikipedia, the creation of Wikipedias for all three Frisian variants was on his and some others' agendas, but didn't have a very high priority. As the Seeltersk wikipedia is now in the early stage of development, I decided to request a Wikipedia for the last remaining Frisian language. Please do not expect its short time creation, unless unexpectedly some native speaker comes up doing a lot of work.
I am well aware of its huge dialectical differences and we will certainly have to take appropriate measurements to cope with these.
Regards, Wouter
Nooit ongewenste berichten ontvangen: gebruik MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wouter,
I have a major issue with this request.
That is: Do you have /any/ native speakers who have expressed interest?
No, not yet, but I am confident it will succeed, for unlike with Saterlandic, there seems to be a well developed infrastructure of devoted users, some of which will certainly be willing to contribute. There is at least one known example of a non-quotation North Frisian on Wikipedia, probably left by a (near-)native speaker.
Also, I am a firm believer in North Frisian dialectal solidarity. I do not think there can or should be a single North Frisian Wikipedia. We should start with one for Mainland North Frisian, then we can have another for Söl`ring, one for Ferring, Oomram, etc.
Now, I will lift a quote from an e-mail in response to me on "lowlands-l" regarding North Frisian:
//begin quote// You and I and other language "geeks" (and I mean this in the best possible way of course) would not find the North Frisian varieties all that different from each other. We would think they are fairly easily mutually intelligible. However, apparently the average person that not think so, and this seems to be mainly because some of the shifts, especially vowel shifts, are rather dramatic. Some people talk about "Frisian *languages*."
You're right: the differences are big. On the other hand, people have to cope with similar problems on li:, nds: and als:, covering a very broad spectrum of quite dissimilar but somehow coherent dialects. If North Frisian were still spoken by nearly all of the population, two or more North Frisian Wikipedias would be a possibility, albeit that it would be problematic to convince the wikipedia gurus of its necessity, but since the language has only some 7,000 speakers (estimates vary), we can't afford spiltting it up. I was planning to use two variants of North Frisian, Fering-Öömrang and Bökingharder dialect, on the most important pages, f.i. the Main Page and of course redirects can solve a lot of the problem. Finally, while the mainland and insular dialects may be mutually unintelligible for many when spoken, written text allows much more mutual understanding. And don't forget that all native speakers learnt Frisian, Low Saxon and High German all in their childhood, so they are more focused on language variants then most of us are.
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7000 is very, very, very wrong..
If I recall corectly, some islands has over 5000 on their own??
Even so, I will not support a unified North Frisian Wikipedia.
And please do not go around asking for new Wikipedias without at least nominal support from a native speaker.
Mark
On 09/05/05, Wouter Steenbeek musiqolog@hotmail.com wrote:
Wouter,
I have a major issue with this request.
That is: Do you have /any/ native speakers who have expressed interest?
No, not yet, but I am confident it will succeed, for unlike with Saterlandic, there seems to be a well developed infrastructure of devoted users, some of which will certainly be willing to contribute. There is at least one known example of a non-quotation North Frisian on Wikipedia, probably left by a (near-)native speaker.
Also, I am a firm believer in North Frisian dialectal solidarity. I do not think there can or should be a single North Frisian Wikipedia. We should start with one for Mainland North Frisian, then we can have another for Söl`ring, one for Ferring, Oomram, etc.
Now, I will lift a quote from an e-mail in response to me on "lowlands-l" regarding North Frisian:
//begin quote// You and I and other language "geeks" (and I mean this in the best possible way of course) would not find the North Frisian varieties all that different from each other. We would think they are fairly easily mutually intelligible. However, apparently the average person that not think so, and this seems to be mainly because some of the shifts, especially vowel shifts, are rather dramatic. Some people talk about "Frisian *languages*."
You're right: the differences are big. On the other hand, people have to cope with similar problems on li:, nds: and als:, covering a very broad spectrum of quite dissimilar but somehow coherent dialects. If North Frisian were still spoken by nearly all of the population, two or more North Frisian Wikipedias would be a possibility, albeit that it would be problematic to convince the wikipedia gurus of its necessity, but since the language has only some 7,000 speakers (estimates vary), we can't afford spiltting it up. I was planning to use two variants of North Frisian, Fering-Öömrang and Bökingharder dialect, on the most important pages, f.i. the Main Page and of course redirects can solve a lot of the problem. Finally, while the mainland and insular dialects may be mutually unintelligible for many when spoken, written text allows much more mutual understanding. And don't forget that all native speakers learnt Frisian, Low Saxon and High German all in their childhood, so they are more focused on language variants then most of us are.
Altijd in contact met de kleinkinderen: MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/
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