Brion Vibber wrote:
.... Wouldn't it be more sensible if [[kingdom (biology)]]
_automatically_ displayed as "kingdom", and in the much rarer cases we had to add a pipe to force the long form? ...
Yes that would be much more sensible and unless there is an objection I say go ahead and implement it (with the proper announcements to Wikipedia News on meta of course).
What about handling of namespaces and interwiki links? Currently they're displayed be default, and the pipe trick strips them just like parentheticals.
I rarely ever want to actually display any namespace (including interwiki ones) other than the various talk namespaces. IMO all non-talk namespaces (wikipedia, user, special and interwiki) should not displayed by default.
Question:
What about all the piped links that are already in Wikipedia? Will all instances of [[kingdom (biology) | kingdom]] that are in articles right now be converted to [[kingdom (biology)]] but displayed as <u>kingdom</u>? Or would [[kingdom (biology)]] automatically be converted to [[kingdom (biology) | kingdom]] in the wiki code upon save? Or would we keep all cases of [[kingdom (biology) | kingdom]] and still support that syntax but also support [[kingdom (biology)]] being displayed as just <u>kingdom</u> without converting the wiki code to [[kingdom (biology) | kingdom]] at save?
What would also be nice is the extend the pipe trick for comma titles. IMO to follow the logic of your proposed change [[Auburn, California]] would automatically become [[Auburn, California | Auburn]] but that may brake many links that already intend to display the whole link name. So just to make linking easier for at least those in the know perhaps [[Auburn, California | ]] could be displayed as just <u>Auburn</u> but in the wiki code it could still be [[Auburn, California | ]] so that newbies can figure out the trick. Yeah I know this would be inconsistent with the proposed change in how the pipe trick works with parentheticals but it is still tedious to type [[Auburn, California | Auburn]] all the time.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
WikiKarma I added many events to [[February 10]] and updated all the year and many of the other pages linked from that page.)
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Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com writes:
Please, stay away from those changes.
What about all the piped links that are already in Wikipedia?
Of course, they must stay as are! Look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg and you will see what I mean. No more tricks please or I'll start loosing confidence in the project as a whole.
Maybe, I better should stick with my own SGML related projects ;)
From: "Karl Eichwalder" ke@gnu.franken.de
Please, stay away from those changes.
What about all the piped links that are already in Wikipedia?
But the usual pipe | links are a-okay aren't they, like [[Jay Bowks|Jay BOWKS]] when I found out about this way of printing the look of the link I thought it quite a handy trick! I can understand about the parentheses causing some trouble in links though. Since, Jay B.
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com writes:
What about all the piped links that are already in Wikipedia?
Of course, they must stay as are! Look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg and you will see what I mean.
Why? The 1% of cases where you _want_ to display the parenthetical can simply use the long syntax.
No more tricks please or I'll start loosing confidence in the project as a whole.
You clearly have a different idea of what "tricks" constitute than I do, or you'd be clamoring to get rid of the ugly tricks we're currently forced to use on 99% of links to disambiguated page titles.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Brion Vibber vibber@aludra.usc.edu writes:
You clearly have a different idea of what "tricks" constitute than I do, or you'd be clamoring to get rid of the ugly tricks we're currently forced to use on 99% of links to disambiguated page titles.
No, those are okay. But let me point out it took me some time to get the sequence right (first link, then display text).
Hey Brion, thanks so much for doing all the work of redirecting the Wiktionary entries. How'd you change the caps so quick ? :-))) Anyway, it's a great start and a strong framework to build on individual entries for each word. Thanks so much for your help!
Sincerely, Jay B. ILVI
On lun, 2003-02-24 at 22:09, Jay Bowks wrote:
Hey Brion, thanks so much for doing all the work of redirecting the Wiktionary entries. How'd you change the caps so quick ? :-)))
The magic of perl scripts!
while( $x = <> ) { $x =~ s/^([[[A-Z ()]+]])/lc "$1"/e; print $x; }
However I've only got P-Z done so far and I'm dang tired. :) If anyone else wants to have a go before I get back to it, feel free.
Also, I've probably missed some that need to be capsed.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
You're the pearl of perl, or the earl of perl, one or the other, or both! Thanks so much for your help. It was past 1 am when I was uploading so "dankon"...
How does one do the scripts on the pages, one has to be a sysop, this isn't for newbies at wiki is it? After all these years with Un*x I'm still a bit of a script kiddie :-)))
w/ regards, Jay B. ILVI ( means "I love vi" :-)
From: "Brion Vibber" brion@pobox.com n lun, 2003-02-24 at 22:09, Jay Bowks wrote:
Hey Brion, thanks so much for doing all the work of redirecting the Wiktionary entries. How'd you change the caps so quick ? :-)))
The magic of perl scripts!
while( $x = <> ) { $x =~ s/^([[[A-Z ()]+]])/lc "$1"/e; print $x; }
However I've only got P-Z done so far and I'm dang tired. :) If anyone else wants to have a go before I get back to it, feel free.
Also, I've probably missed some that need to be capsed.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Greetings!
What's up with Wiktionary?
I've been reading the Talk pages and there's an awful lot of complaining and whining. First, about the Interlingua entries. I need a large file type of list that I can work from to add entries. They are moving to the index section. They can be deleted when I'm done the bulk of entering the multilingual info I have.
Now, please don't misunderstand me... I'm willing to follow protocols and learn the wiki-ways. Plus whatever conventions can be made clear I'll willingly follow.
But...
Someone complained about my French, ehem ehem, not my swearing mind you, my use of French, in that it isn't proper enough, and not accurate enough. Well all I can say is that I'm not a native French speaker, my French High School teacher learned it in Algiers and it's been years since I had a fluent conversation in it for more than five minutes. I do what I can. My German is rotten also, but I do what I can. When I don't know I either leave it blank or put in the English as a marker for me to look up that word later. Again, the index entries are there to help me enter in new info into the main Wiktionary... similarly with Wikipedia articles. Two windows open, cut and paste the look ups, edit here and there, etc.
Now I'm getting requests to "slow down" how un-wiki is that???
Then about the use of HTML tags, well, frankly, the "list" tags in the Wiktionary are all HTML, my additions are usually a mixture of both HTML and wiki-coding. I find it more assuring to write <BR> than to let the parser put a line where it thinks it should. Same for <P> and for <HR> the ---- is sometimes good sometimes not clear enough for me. These are basic HTML tags that shouldn't scare anyone. If tables are a problem, I've only put these in the Wikipedia Homepage for Interlingua and Volapuk and in a couple of wikipedia entries where everything needed a certain layout, like the table of HTML and ASCII codes in the Interlingua Wikipedia.
Now my questions regarding the Wiktionary are:
Is there a set way of entering the info?
Is there an entity that can decide this once and for all?
Is it possible to have foreign language appendixes on the English Wiktionary?
Or...
Is there a possibility that a namespace will happen anytime soon for other languages? (There's even complaints that "this is an English dictionary, isn't it!!!" Well, maybe so but I thought it was also a multilingual dictionary, and that's where I'm interested in helping out).
So those are the issues and I welcome any insights or clues you can pass my way.
Cheers, Jay B.
Jay Bowks wrote:
Greetings!
What's up with Wiktionary?
I've been reading the Talk pages and there's an awful lot of complaining and whining. First, about the Interlingua entries. I need a large file type of list that I can work from to add entries. They are moving to the index section. They can be deleted when I'm done the bulk of entering the multilingual info I have.
These bagan to appear in quantity. They were lists of interlingua words followed by apparent translations into 5 or 6 languages.
Now, please don't misunderstand me... I'm willing to follow protocols and learn the wiki-ways. Plus whatever conventions can be made clear I'll willingly follow.
The conventions are being developed. Your opinions on these developments are as welcome as those of all others.
Someone complained about my French, ehem ehem, not my swearing mind you, my use of French, in that it isn't proper enough, and not accurate enough. Well all I can say is that I'm not a native French speaker, my French High School teacher learned it in Algiers and it's been years since I had a fluent conversation in it for more than five minutes. I do what I can. My German is rotten also, but I do what I can. When I don't know I either leave it blank or put in the English as a marker for me to look up that word later. Again, the index entries are there to help me enter in new info into the main Wiktionary... similarly with Wikipedia articles. Two windows open, cut and paste the look ups, edit here and there, etc.
More often leaving things blank is better than putting in something that is knowingly wrong. When you put erroneous material into the articles it may stay that way for a long time. If large quantities of this stuff appear, there simply aren't enough people available to clean up the errors. I didn't really look at the German entries because I am not as familiar with that language as French, but the French did leave me suspicious about all the others. The mixed assortment of tenses in the French verbs instead of the usual infinitive also made me uncertain about what tense was being used to express the Interlingua verb. If, as you say, the purpose of these articles is to have an index to help you begin new entries and the index will be deleted later anyway, then put manageable quantities on a Sandbox subpage of your user page. When you have finished with one batch there it's easy to replace it with a new batch. No regular participant ever disturbs what you put in a sandbox because it is presumed that you are experimenting on something that is often partial or incomplete.
Now I'm getting requests to "slow down" how un-wiki is that???
Yes. Because you're rushing along in your own direction without regard to what others are doing. Nobody regards your contributions as malicious. It's more like you're functioning like a bull in a china shop.
Then about the use of HTML tags, well, frankly, the "list" tags in the Wiktionary are all HTML, my additions are usually a mixture of both HTML and wiki-coding. I find it more assuring to write <BR> than to let the parser put a line where it thinks it should. Same for <P> and for <HR> the ---- is sometimes good sometimes not clear enough for me. These are basic HTML tags that shouldn't scare anyone. If tables are a problem, I've only put these in the Wikipedia Homepage for Interlingua and Volapuk and in a couple of wikipedia entries where everything needed a certain layout, like the table of HTML and ASCII codes in the Interlingua Wikipedia.
Not everyone is familiar with HTML, and as long as nobody feels the need to edit the article they will remain untouched. It is much easier to develop some kind of standard format for articles if we are all using the same mark-ups. Using tables is an entirely negotiable matter,
Now my questions regarding the Wiktionary are:
Is there a set way of entering the info?
It's under development in a co-operative manner.
Is there an entity that can decide this once and for all?
Realistically: No.
Is it possible to have foreign language appendixes on the English Wiktionary
What would such appendices do?
Or...
Is there a possibility that a namespace will happen anytime soon for other languages? (There's even complaints that "this is an English dictionary, isn't it!!!" Well, maybe so but I thought it was also a multilingual dictionary, and that's where I'm interested in helping out).
Hopefully a sub-domain instead of a namespace for each language. Consider the existing Wiktionary as a dictionary for English speakers rather than simply a dictionary of English. It is multilingual in its efforts to present an understanding of other languages for English speakers. I expect that a parallel situation will exist when the sub-domains are developed for other languages.
Eclecticology
What would also be nice is the extend the pipe trick for comma titles. IMO to follow the logic of your proposed change [[Auburn, California]] would automatically become [[Auburn, California | Auburn]] but that may brake many links that already intend to display the whole link name. So just to make linking easier for at least those in the know perhaps [[Auburn, California | ]] could be displayed as just <u>Auburn</u> but in the wiki code it could still be [[Auburn, California | ]] so that newbies can figure out the trick. Yeah I know this would be inconsistent with the proposed change in how the pipe trick works with parentheticals but it is still tedious to type [[Auburn, California | Auburn]] all the time.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
Violates the principle of least surprise, in my arrogant opinion. A naive attempt to link to [[20,000 Leagues Under the Sea]] would show up in the displayed article as <u>20</u>? A link to [['Night, Mother]] would display as <u>'Night</u>?
I think a lot of newbies would conclude that the Wikipedia is broken. -- Sean Barrett | Aw, Mom, you act like I'm not even sean@epoptic.com | wearing a bungee cord! --Calvin
Mav149 wrote:
Brion VIBBER wrote:
Wouldn't it be more sensible if [[kingdom (biology)]] _automatically_ displayed as "kingdom", and in the much rarer cases we had to add a pipe to force the long form?
Yes that would be much more sensible and unless there is an objection I say go ahead and implement it (with the proper announcements to Wikipedia News on meta of course).
Given that it's just a pipe each way, we shouldn't switch the behaviour of the trick. People are used to writing [[Kingdom (biology)]] (in disambiguation pages and disambiguation blocks), and most people will never see the announcement that the behaviour of this has been changed. This idea would work at the beginning, but changing it now will confuse the majority of participants, who don't read the mailing list or meta.
What would also be nice is to extend the pipe trick for comma titles. IMO to follow the logic of your proposed change [[Auburn, California]] would automatically become [[Auburn, California | Auburn]] but that may brake many links that already intend to display the whole link name. So just to make linking easier for at least those in the know perhaps [[Auburn, California | ]] could be displayed as just <u>Auburn</u> but in the wiki code it could still be [[Auburn, California | ]] so that newbies can figure out the trick. Yeah I know this would be inconsistent with the proposed change in how the pipe trick works with parentheticals but it is still tedious to type [[Auburn, California | Auburn]] all the time.
In the case of [[Auburn, California]], [[German language]], and other situations where our naming conventions don't follow the usual rules for disambiguation with parentheses, you can set up redirects like [[Auburn (California)]] and link to those with the pipe trick [[Auburn (California)|]]. Of course, the first time that you do this, the redirect won't exist, and you'll have to create it; and if [[Auburn, California]] doesn't exist yet (cities always do, but languages and other things don't), then you won't be able to do this.
-- Toby
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