Hello dear Wikipedians, I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/ /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http: //bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to do so. Thank you very much, CdaMVvWgS
Could you please check http://als.wikipedia.org first? It was started as a Wikipedia in Elsassisch, but has recently been extended to cover all Alemannic dialects, to which Baseldytsch also belongs.
Andre Engels
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:58:10 +0100 (MET), cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch wrote:
Hello dear Wikipedians, I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/ /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http: //bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to do so. Thank you very much, CdaMVvWgS
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I believe it was noted on the Requests for New Language page that Baseldytsch is apparently significantly different from Alemannic, and it has its own unique orthography and literature.
I'm not sure what I think in this case, but I think ultimately, if Baseldytsch speakers believe a separate Wikipedia is nessecary, we should let them have it. (if you go to the Ethnologue, some language entries note that separate literature might be nessecary for some dialect of the language because the speakers see it as another language or for other reasons similar to this case)
Mark
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:55:21 +0100, Andre Engels andreengels@gmail.com wrote:
Could you please check http://als.wikipedia.org first? It was started as a Wikipedia in Elsassisch, but has recently been extended to cover all Alemannic dialects, to which Baseldytsch also belongs.
Andre Engels
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:58:10 +0100 (MET), cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch
cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch wrote:
Hello dear Wikipedians, I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/ /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http: //bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to do so. Thank you very much, CdaMVvWgS
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Or, alternativly, create an schwytzerdütsch wikipedia, instead of starting with a small subset of schwytzerdütsch?
Could you please check http://als.wikipedia.org first? It was started as a Wikipedia in Elsassisch, but has recently been extended to cover all Alemannic dialects, to which Baseldytsch also belongs.
Andre Engels
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:58:10 +0100 (MET), cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch wrote:
Hello dear Wikipedians, I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/ /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http: //bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to do so. Thank you very much, CdaMVvWgS
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As has been noted before, we already have an Alemannic Wikipedia, and so far all SD speakers seem to have been attracted to it, whereas BSD (not the OS) seems to have received a different reaction.
Mark
On 16 Nov 2004 23:44:00 +0100, Till Westermayer till@tillwe.de wrote:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Or, alternativly, create an schwytzerdütsch wikipedia, instead of starting with a small subset of schwytzerdütsch?
Could you please check http://als.wikipedia.org first? It was started as a Wikipedia in Elsassisch, but has recently been extended to cover all Alemannic dialects, to which Baseldytsch also belongs.
Andre Engels
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 15:58:10 +0100 (MET), cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch wrote:
Hello dear Wikipedians, I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/ /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http: //bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to do so. Thank you very much, CdaMVvWgS
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:37:37 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
As has been noted before, we already have an Alemannic Wikipedia, and so far all SD speakers seem to have been attracted to it, whereas BSD (not the OS) seems to have received a different reaction.
I'm not sure I understand you.
Baseldytsch *is* Schwytzerdütsch (Swiss-German). There are a number of regional dialects of Schwytzerdütsch; Baseldytsch is just the one corresponding to the area around Basel (in Switzerland). All of these belong to the Alemannic language family, but each is highly distinct in pronunciation and orthography, and distinct in turn from the Elsässisch, the Alemannic language spoken in Alsace in France.
According to the requester on [[meta:Request for new language]], "Baseldytsch is like other swiss dialects extremely different from the "language" used on the Alemannic Wikipedia."
If this is correct, then it isn't true, as you say, that Schwytzerdütsch speakers have been attracted to the Alemannic wikipedia. I would guess that most of the language used to this point is Elsässisch, since that's what that wikipedia started as.
The requester also writes: "And please, don't think about a swiss-german wikipedia, the differences are extremely big, too big."
The question is, is it reasonable to grant a wikipedia to every Alemannic dialect? Probably this discussion should involve whoever decided to generalize Elsässisch to Alemannic, since we can't really call it an 'Alemannic' wikipedia if it's mostly Elsässisch and each Alemannic dialect wants its own namespace.
Steve
Kaixo!
On Wed, Nov 17, 2004 at 06:29:05PM -0500, Stephen Forrest wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:37:37 -0700, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
As has been noted before, we already have an Alemannic Wikipedia, and so far all SD speakers seem to have been attracted to it, whereas BSD (not the OS) seems to have received a different reaction.
I'm not sure I understand you.
He says that only people from Basel want their own idiosyncrasic wikipedia, and that all other Alemannic speakers agree to put their efforts in common (I don't know how true that is, however).
Baseldytsch *is* Schwytzerdütsch (Swiss-German).
Well, is it or not? You keep telling how extremely different it is.
but each is highly distinct in pronunciation and orthography,
Pronunciation and orthography are not major features of a language (pronunciation and orthography change a lot over time, and in case of languages with not yet normalized writting form, orthography changes from place to place, and even from people to people, yet the language is the same). What is a feature of a language is it grammar and lexicon.
So, is Baseldytsch different in grammar and vocabulary from what is used in Alemannic as to require a different Wikipedia? Or are the differences simply on the orthographic conventions used?
(A similar problem exists with Walloon language, if you write it phonetically, at least 4 major orthographies exist (with dozens of small variants for each one of them) to match the pronunciation differences; however, as it is the same language, a common orthography has been developped recently (in the 1995-2000) and that is what is used in the Walloon Wikipedia, as that is the only way to have consistency for a work done by multiple people from different places and different accents)
According to the requester on [[meta:Request for new language]], "Baseldytsch is like other swiss dialects extremely different from the "language" used on the Alemannic Wikipedia."
If this is correct, then it isn't true, as you say, that Schwytzerdütsch speakers have been attracted to the Alemannic wikipedia.
Why not? "Distinctiveness" is often a very subjective thing. I can perfectly believe that people from a big city are less inclined to change their orthographic habitudes to adapt to a broader system than people from smaller places.
I would guess that most of the language used to this point is Elsässisch, since that's what that wikipedia started as.
I would guess exactly the opposite. (it may even be possible that no Elsässisch is left, and that all old articles have been converted to a common orthography yet).
The question is, is it reasonable to grant a wikipedia to every Alemannic dialect? Probably this discussion should involve whoever decided to generalize Elsässisch to Alemannic, since we can't really call it an 'Alemannic' wikipedia if it's mostly Elsässisch and each Alemannic dialect wants its own namespace.
That is indeed the question.
As building an encyclopedia is a *VERY BIG* task, it would be advisable not to divert efforts, imho; so there should only be one Wikipedia per language, not per dialect. Note that some define themselves as different languages while, linguistically, they are not; but they feel as different enough; but that doesn't seem the case here. So, imho, as long as speakers of "Baseldytsch" define themselves as speakers of Alemannic, then a separate Wikipedia should not be created; only if speakers of Baseldytsch claim that they don't speak Alemannic but a different *language* should a separate Wikipedia be created.
This is my first post to the list. I'm a swiss german (Schwytzertütsch) native speaker, not Baseldytsch though. I'm not a linguistic specialist but maybe I can give you a feeling for our language:
*Baseldytsch is one of several swiss-german/Alemanic dialects. *All speakers of swiss-german dialects understand every other dialect without any difficulties. *swiss-german dialects usualy don't have a normalized writting form or spelling rule. *Swiss read and write in German. We don't learn how to write and read in swiss german at school *Baseldytsch is not further from every other swiss-german dialect than Brooklyn-english from Manhattan-english or Paris-french from Bretagne-french.
Am 18.11.2004 um 07:30 schrieb Pablo Saratxaga:
As building an encyclopedia is a *VERY BIG* task, it would be advisable not to divert efforts, imho; so there should only be one Wikipedia per language, not per dialect.
I agree. As speakers of Baseldytsch usualy write and read in German and perfectly understand German there shouldn't be one more Wiki for the same content. As you can see there are only 245 Articles in Alemanic WP so far.
Am 18.11.2004 um 07:30 schrieb Pablo Saratxaga:
Note that some define themselves as different languages while, linguistically, they are not; but they feel as different enough; but that doesn't seem the case here.
That is the case here
Am 18.11.2004 um 00:29 schrieb Stephen Forrest:
According to the requester on [[meta:Request for new language]], "Baseldytsch is like other swiss dialects extremely different from the "language" used on the Alemannic Wikipedia."
Spelling might be slightly different, 99% of the used words are the same.
As long as Wikipedia aims to build an encyclopedia that wants to provide the world with free knowledge, the German WP serves this aim perfectly for all swiss-german/Alemanic dialects.
If WP helps to preserve local and regional dialects and language culture, a Baseldytsch WP should be set up. But also a Wikipedia for Berne-dialect, Zurich-dialect, Grisons-dialect, St.-Gallen-dialect and every other swiss-german dialect.
I hope this gives you an impression 'from the inside'
Cheers Andreas
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Andreas,
As long as Wikipedia aims to build an encyclopedia that wants to provide the world with free knowledge, the German WP serves this aim perfectly for all swiss-german/Alemanic dialects.
If WP helps to preserve local and regional dialects and language culture, a Baseldytsch WP should be set up. But also a Wikipedia for Berne-dialect, Zurich-dialect, Grisons-dialect, St.-Gallen-dialect and every other swiss-german dialect.
What I proposed was intended as a middle way: don't divert efforts into every single dialect, but group them, so that there is a critical mass. I live in Freiburg/Germany, so I'm a bit familiar with Swiss-German dialects as well as high German and Alemanic dialects (even if I speak only high German). I'm sure German WP won't allow for dialectial variants (but for Switzerland's high German variants). On the other hand, I'm not convicted that all the Alemanic dialects are similiar enough to put them into one WP, at least my impression of Swiss German is quite different from Freiburg area Alemanic, Alsatian or Swabian. So my proposal to group all the Swiss German dialects into one WP.
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Hirschstraße 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
*All speakers of swiss-german dialects understand every other dialect without any difficulties.
Just BTW, that I'm not so sure... (Wallis)
*swiss-german dialects usualy don't have a normalized writting form or spelling rule.
some of them have: e.g. the dialect spoken around Zurich ("Züritüütsch") has some written grammar books
Regards, Michael
cdamvvwgs@gmx.ch wrote:
Hello dear Wikipedians, I listed a proposal for a Wikipedia in Baseldytsch (a swiss-german dialect in Switzerland with its own dictionary and orthography, about one million speakers; see also http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Request_for_new_language). I'm currently translating the interface (http:/ /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Locales_for_the_Wikipedia_Software), but is there anyone who can put the Baseldytsch Wikipedia online under the domain http: //bsd.wikipedia.org/ ??? If yes, please do so! Or send me an e-mail how to do so. Thank you very much, CdaMVvWgS
bsd is not an ISO 639-2 language code. Subdomains may be either:
* An ISO 639-1 language code (e.g. en) * An ISO 639-2 language code (e.g. als) * An RFC 3066 language code (e.g. zh-min-nan) * A descriptive name longer than 3 letters (e.g. tokipona)
Do you have a second preference?
-- Tim Starling
I wrote:
bsd is not an ISO 639-2 language code. Subdomains may be either:
- An ISO 639-1 language code (e.g. en)
- An ISO 639-2 language code (e.g. als)
- An RFC 3066 language code (e.g. zh-min-nan)
- A descriptive name longer than 3 letters (e.g. tokipona)
Do you have a second preference?
It doesn't seem to be in SIL or LinguistList, they both lump it in with Allemanisch. So I don't think you can construct an RFC 3066 code for it. So that just leaves baseldytsch.wikipedia.org .
-- Tim Starling
I was unable to find als in a list of ISO 639-2 language codes.
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 14:15:03 +1100, Tim Starling t.starling@physics.unimelb.edu.au wrote:
I wrote:
bsd is not an ISO 639-2 language code. Subdomains may be either:
- An ISO 639-1 language code (e.g. en)
- An ISO 639-2 language code (e.g. als)
- An RFC 3066 language code (e.g. zh-min-nan)
- A descriptive name longer than 3 letters (e.g. tokipona)
Do you have a second preference?
It doesn't seem to be in SIL or LinguistList, they both lump it in with Allemanisch. So I don't think you can construct an RFC 3066 code for it. So that just leaves baseldytsch.wikipedia.org .
-- Tim Starling
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Mark Williamson wrote:
I was unable to find als in a list of ISO 639-2 language codes.
Fine. Make that...
New subdomains may be either:
* An ISO 639-1 language code (e.g. en) * An ISO 639-2 language code (e.g. cho) * An RFC 3066 language code (e.g. zh-min-nan) * A descriptive name longer than 3 letters (e.g. tokipona)
Some subdomains that existed before these rules were established may be kept at their current locations for the time being.
As I see you have already decided to set up a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, since you are looking for a language code. Didn't you wonder why there isn't a language code?
I want to make you aware of the consequences of setting up a Baseldytsch Wikipedia:
*Every single dialect group in Switzerland will have an own WP. There are around 100 local dialects (Baseldytsch is one of the bigger ones). *There are also regional and local dialects in Germany and Austria who might want to have their own WP
Am 18.11.2004 um 12:55 schrieb David Rossel:
Please, don't think about one wikipedia for all swiss-german dialects. That would be the same thing like the Alemannic wikipedia: An uncommon mixture of native dialects.
In this point I agree with you.
But basically you want to set up a Wikipedia for one city with some 160'000 inhabitants and 600'000 inhabitants in the surroundings (where they already speak a slightly different dialect). That is comparable with an American suburb; let's call it Springfield. Imagine they want to have an own Wikipedia, because they're feeling so different, although they're all reading and writing in english.
A Baseldytsch Wikipedia would have much sense as a repository for words that only exist in Baseldytsch and not in German. But for that purpose it might be better to find a way to implement dialect and regional language culture into to the big German one.
German is a standardized language that everyone between the Matterhorn (southern part of Switzerland) and Hamburg (northern Germany) understands, reads and writes. In fact Swiss (also the people in Basel) read better German than their local dialect, because they're not used to the written form of the dialect. That makes German the best language for sharing knowledge within this geographic area. And sharing knowledge is actually the purpose of Wikipedia.
I am not against wiki-encyclopedias in Swiss German dialects. I am very proud of my native dialect and I wanna preserve it as well. But in my opinion this doesn't support the much more important purpose of Wikikpedia to make free knowledge accessible to everyone. If everyone sets up its own wiki, wiki-culture doesn't work anymore.
Cheers Andreas
Andreas Brändle wrote:
As I see you have already decided to set up a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, since you are looking for a language code. Didn't you wonder why there isn't a language code?
No, I was sick of all the endless chatter about linguistics and thought I might contribute something solid to the conversation -- if there is such a wiki, it can't be at bsd. I cared about linguistics when the zh-min-nan issue was current, I read up about Norwegian long before the no/nn/nb thing broke out, but now I'm sick of linguistics making up 80% of the posts to this list.
I'm not going to take sides in this tedious debate, or the constant stream of similar debates. I'll defer judgement to the Board.
In the meantime, it would be nice if these debates could find a home off the general project-wide list -- either on meta or on their own mailing list.
-- Tim Starling
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:02:10 +0100, Andreas Brändle andreas@obacht.ch wrote:
As I see you have already decided to set up a Baseldytsch Wikipedia, since you are looking for a language code. Didn't you wonder why there isn't a language code?
I want to make you aware of the consequences of setting up a Baseldytsch Wikipedia:
*Every single dialect group in Switzerland will have an own WP. There are around 100 local dialects (Baseldytsch is one of the bigger ones). *There are also regional and local dialects in Germany and Austria who might want to have their own WP
Am 18.11.2004 um 12:55 schrieb David Rossel:
Please, don't think about one wikipedia for all swiss-german dialects. That would be the same thing like the Alemannic wikipedia: An uncommon mixture of native dialects.
In this point I agree with you.
But basically you want to set up a Wikipedia for one city with some 160'000 inhabitants and 600'000 inhabitants in the surroundings (where they already speak a slightly different dialect). That is comparable with an American suburb; let's call it Springfield. Imagine they want to have an own Wikipedia, because they're feeling so different, although they're all reading and writing in english.
A Baseldytsch Wikipedia would have much sense as a repository for words that only exist in Baseldytsch and not in German. But for that purpose it might be better to find a way to implement dialect and regional language culture into to the big German one.
German is a standardized language that everyone between the Matterhorn (southern part of Switzerland) and Hamburg (northern Germany) understands, reads and writes. In fact Swiss (also the people in Basel) read better German than their local dialect, because they're not used to the written form of the dialect. That makes German the best language for sharing knowledge within this geographic area. And sharing knowledge is actually the purpose of Wikipedia.
I am not against wiki-encyclopedias in Swiss German dialects. I am very proud of my native dialect and I wanna preserve it as well. But in my opinion this doesn't support the much more important purpose of Wikikpedia to make free knowledge accessible to everyone. If everyone sets up its own wiki, wiki-culture doesn't work anymore.
Cheers Andreas
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Ainu, an isolated indigenous language of Japan with perhaps around 200 native-fluent speakers, has no ISO code, even though it is definitely not a dialect of any other language by anybody's measurement. The O'odham language has almost 50000 speakers, and is by no measure a dialect of another language, but has no ISO code. (allow me to correct myself, these have collective ISO codes but not individual codes) Having no ISO code does not mean a language is not a language, or that it is negligible.
As far as bsd not being an ISO code... it would of course take more time, but one option would be for our proposers here to take it to the committee which oversees the standard and request that their language be added to the standard.
That aside, I think the best domain would probably be http://baseldytsch.wikipedia.org/
Speaking of which, now that a speaker of Friulian has actually turned up on the ML and is already a Wikipedian and has been for some time, and there are no linguistic issues with Friulian, can somebody create http://fur.wikipedia.org/ ? The language name is "Furlan".
If you actually care, there are already websites in Friulian, for example http://www.friul.net/ http://www.lenghe.net/ http://www.partitrepublichefurlane.org/ http://www.siencis-par-furlan.net/ http://www.glesiefurlane.it/ http://www.sacilotto.net/index_fur.htm http://www.scritorsfurlans.org/ http://www.lacomugne.it/ http://www.istitutladinfurlan.it/ http://www.ladinsdalfriul.org/ http://www.lingue.regione.fvg.it/minor/fu/homepage.aspx etc etc etc...
Mark
P.S. Please refrain from top-posting.
Gerrit Holl kind regards,
Mark Williamson wrote:
I was unable to find als in a list of ISO 639-2 language codes.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ALS
ALBANIAN, GHEG: a language of Yugoslavia
Population 1,372,750 to 1,800,000 in Yugoslavia (1992). Ethnic Albanians are 90% of Kosovo's 2,000,000 people (1998 Los Angeles Times). Population total all countries 2,000,000 (1980 UBS).
Hello,
On Nov 19, 2004, at 12:47 AM, Gerrit wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
I was unable to find als in a list of ISO 639-2 language codes.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=ALS
ALBANIAN, GHEG: a language of Yugoslavia
Ethnologue uses SIL codes, not ISO 639-2. (SIL is the organization that produces Ethnologue.)
als is not an ISO 639-2 code; I foolishly created the pseudo-code out of thin air when creating the Allemanish wiki. This was a mistake because new codes may be assigned in the future which conflict with invented ones; since then our policy has been to use longer names when an official iso 639-1 (2-letter) or 639-2 (3-letter) code is not available, to avoid potential conflicts.
-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
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