And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has also a special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro with the name of mirandés. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the name of leonés) has no special protection. You should read more about this before saying things like that...
The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from Spanish.
You should read more before you say anything that is not true. Andalusian is not a dialect, is a group of dialects that are very simmilar between them, but very different from spanish. And Andalusian is spoken by a lot of people, approx. 8000000 in Andalusia, it derivers from the Latin dialects that were spoken in the arabic spain.
bye.
From: Omar Alvarez omarete@gmail.com Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:02:22 +0100
And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has also a special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro with the name of mirandés. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the name of leonés) has no special protection. You should read more about this before saying things like that...
The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from Spanish. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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But I have to say that you are also right, it derivers from latin, but what i wanted to say is that aragonese and asturian are "castellanizados" y mucho.
From: Omar Alvarez omarete@gmail.com Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:02:22 +0100
And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has also a special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro with the name of mirandés. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the name of leonés) has no special protection. You should read more about this before saying things like that...
The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from Spanish. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
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Oy, Oy, Oy...
No nos peleemos, que no es necesario tirarse las piedras nacionalistas a la cabeza.
I consider we should help us and not say that you are not right, and he is not right.......
I think that andalusian is a language, and what the people that are not andalusians want to say should not be important, because we have the right to do with our language what we want, the asturians also have that right.
I consider Andalusian as a language and you already know I am going to participate, and I know a lot of people that also would participate if the know about. I am going to get contact with them.
Ciao.
<BLOCKQUOTE style='PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #A0C6E5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px'><font style='FONT-SIZE:11px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma,sans-serif'><hr color=#A0C6E5 size=1> From: <i>"raul otjes" <rautjes@hotmail.com></i><br>Reply-To: <i>wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org</i><br>To: <i>wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org</i><br>Subject: <i>RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language</i><br>Date: <i>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:31:37 +0100</i><br>>But I have to say that you are also right, it derivers from latin, <br>>but what i wanted to say is that aragonese and asturian are <br>>"castellanizados" y mucho.<br>><br>><br>>>From: Omar Alvarez <omarete@gmail.com><br>>>Reply-To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org<br>>>To: wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org<br>>>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language<br>>>Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:02:22 +0100<br>>><br>>> >And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian <br>>>as<br>>> >andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.<br>>><br>>>That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not <br>>>dialects<br>>>from spanish, they derive directly from latin. The Asturian has <br>>>also a<br>>>special status in Asturias, and is official in Miranda do Douro <br>>>with<br>>>the name of mirandés. In Leon, where it's also spoken (with the <br>>>name<br>>>of leonés) has no special protection. You should read more about <br>>>this<br>>>before saying things like that...<br>>><br>>>The difference with the Andalusian is that it is a dialect from <br>>>Spanish.<br>>>_______________________________________________<br>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list<br>>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org<br>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l<br>><br>>_________________________________________________________________<br>>Consigue aquí las mejores y mas recientes ofertas de trabajo en <br>>América Latina y USA: http://latam.msn.com/empleos/<br>><br>>_______________________________________________<br>>Wikipedia-l mailing list<br>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org<br>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l<br></font></BLOCKQUOTE>
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2005/11/13, Manuel Miguel Aranda Ruiz aranda_ruiz@hotmail.com:
Oy, Oy, Oy...
No nos peleemos, que no es necesario tirarse las piedras nacionalistas a la cabeza.
Who is talking about nacionalism here? We are talking about lingüistics. I see perfect that you ask for a wikipedia in your prefered language/dialect, Andalusian, Mexican, Klingon... whatever you want, but please, don't tell things that are not true about other wikipedias (I know you aren't who said that, but I'm saying it in general).
Bye
Omar Alvarez wrote:
And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.
That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not dialects from spanish, they derive directly from latin.
Uhm... whether you consider them a dialect of Spanish or not is pretty much independent of whether it derives from Latin or not. All Romance languages/dialects/whatever derive from Latin, including Spanish, Asturian and Andalusian.
Timwi
Hi,
I think that Omar means that Asturian derives from old-leonés, and spanisch from old-castilian, any way I m not sure if he really wanted to say that.
Well we have to add that Andalusian derives as well from the dialects spoken in the mooslem Spain, those dialects derive from latin as well as old-leonés, ols-castilian etc....
Ciao.
<BLOCKQUOTE style='PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #A0C6E5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px'><font style='FONT-SIZE:11px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma,sans-serif'><hr color=#A0C6E5 size=1> From: <i>Timwi <timwi@gmx.net></i><br>Reply-To: <i>wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org</i><br>To: <i>wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org</i><br>Subject: <i>[Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language</i><br>Date: <i>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:55:52 +0000</i><br>>Omar Alvarez wrote:<br>>>>And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as<br>>>>andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.<br>>><br>>>That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not <br>>>dialects<br>>>from spanish, they derive directly from latin.<br>><br>>Uhm... whether you consider them a dialect of Spanish or not is <br>>pretty much independent of whether it derives from Latin or not. All <br>>Romance languages/dialects/whatever derive from Latin, including <br>>Spanish, Asturian and Andalusian.<br>><br>>Timwi<br>><br>>_______________________________________________<br>>Wikipedia-l mailing list<br>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org<br>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l<br></font></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Hi,
I think the success of this proposal depends on you being able to prove two things:
1) that Andalusian is different from Spanish to the extent that it isn't fully mutually-intelligible 2) that it is recognised as a language, either by the Andalusian Community Government, by ISO, by Ethnologue, or even by certain interest groups. This point is most important - I think the dialect vs language debate is basically about which languages are fixed and which aren't. Dialects generally don't tend to be standardised and recognised, whereas languages are. It's one think to attempt to construct a Wikipedia in a language that isn't recognised and that has no standard form, and another to write a Wikipedia in a minority language that actually has some backing. That the difference, for example, between proposals like, say, Ripurian, and Voro or Samogitian. While none of those are recognised by ISO and Ethnologue, Voro and Samogitian have standard forms, have publications in those languages, and have interest groups that promote the languages. Ripurian doesn't have any of those. Does Andalusian?
Unfortunately, there is still no proper Wikipedia article about the language, and no Ethnologue code. It is actually very difficult to get an ISO code without a language having an Ethnologue code. Ethnologue classifies it as a dialect.
Other than that, good luck with the proposal!
On 11/14/05, Manuel Miguel Aranda Ruiz aranda_ruiz@hotmail.com wrote:
Hi,
I think that Omar means that Asturian derives from old-leonés, and spanisch from old-castilian, any way I m not sure if he really wanted to say that.
Well we have to add that Andalusian derives as well from the dialects spoken in the mooslem Spain, those dialects derive from latin as well as old-leonés, ols-castilian etc....
Ciao.
<BLOCKQUOTE style='PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #A0C6E5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px'><font style='FONT-SIZE:11px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma,sans-serif'><hr color=#A0C6E5 size=1> From: <i>Timwi <timwi@gmx.net></i><br>Reply-To: <i>wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org</i><br>To: <i>wikipedia-l@wikipedia.org</i><br>Subject: <i>[Wikipedia-l] Re: New Language</i><br>Date: <i>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 23:55:52 +0000</i><br>>Omar Alvarez wrote:<br>>>>And Aragonese or Asturian are not more different from castilian as<br>>>>andalusian, they were it in the past, but not today.<br>>><br>>>That's not true. First of all, Aragonose and Asturian are not <br>>>dialects<br>>>from spanish, they derive directly from latin.<br>><br>>Uhm... whether you consider them a dialect of Spanish or not is <br>>pretty much independent of whether it derives from Latin or not. All <br>>Romance languages/dialects/whatever derive from Latin, including <br>>Spanish, Asturian and
Andalusian.<br>><br>>Timwi<br>><br>>_______________________________________________<br>>Wikipedia-l mailing list<br>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org<br>> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l <br></font></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Sorry, I don't have much time to answer with a long explaining mail.
Maybe some links help
http://www.studiesabroad.com/programs/country/spain/city/sevilla/duration/19...
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3849/paper_andalusia.html
http://www.estepa.com/ing/cultura/cult3.htm
http://www.rosettaproject.org/live/search/detailedlanguagerecord?ethnocode=X...
http://www.afotoh.com/english.html
http://www.trustedtranslations.com/castilian_spanish.asp
Just search for Andalusian + language in google and you get 205.000 answers (of course not all are "good answers). Whoever speaks Andalusian: just search for electronic texts online - they are there for sure. I know there is literature, songs etc. in Andalusian or start adding contents to wikisource in Andalusian +add Andalusian terminology to wiktionary (if the actual Wiktionary does not allow to contribute Andalusian language since they state that it is not a language, please let me know - there is a place, always GFDL that will help you). Search for Yahoo groups about the Andalusian language. Search for Spanish heritage groups - they will be of help - there you can find people who maybe speak Andalusian, but don't speak Spanish.
I know that Andalusian is different from Spanish (I was in Andalusia and my Spanish did not help quite much to understand people talking (well when they talked with me they then used Spanish) ... some Neapolitan words instead did help .... well of course if you go back centuries there's a reason for that).
Ciao,
Sabine
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