Please, look at articles such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Slavs , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_denar and similar.
Greek nationalists, supported by one Bulgarian nationalist (just to say that Bulgarian Wikipedian community is not nationalist) are forcing naming (modern) Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs".
Even (some) people on English Wikipedia think that they can vote about the name of one ethicity/nation. This is a horror. I urge to all of you to stop that (Greek) nationalist orgy there!
Wikipedia is not the place for nationalist propaganda.
Milos Rancic wrote:
Greek nationalists, supported by one Bulgarian nationalist (just to say that Bulgarian Wikipedian community is not nationalist) are forcing naming (modern) Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs".
Even (some) people on English Wikipedia think that they can vote about the name of one ethicity/nation. This is a horror. I urge to all of you to stop that (Greek) nationalist orgy there!
The problem is that the name "Macedonian", in English at least, is ambiguous. In some contexts, it primarily refers to residents of the Republic of Macedonia. In other contexts, it primarily refers to residents of the ancient Macedonian Empire. In still other contexts, it refers generally to inhabitants of the Balkan region named "Macedonia" (corresponding roughly to the former Ottoman province of that name), some of whom are in the RoM, but others of whom are in Greece and Bulgaria. This latter usage in particular leads to some disputes, especially with northern Greeks who call themselves "Macedonians", and consider the name an important part of their history (the 1912 war that captured Thessaloniki from the Ottomans is and long has been called the "Macedonian Struggle", for example).
Generally, Wikipedia tries to find some compromise on disputed issues, so in this case the compromise is that none of the claimants get the unadorned "Macedonians" as a descriptor.
I do agree something other than "Macedonian Slavs" would be good. "Macedonian (nationality)" has been proposed on one of the talk pages and seems relatively neutral (since the ancient Macedonians weren't part of a "nationality" by a modern definition, and the modern Greek Macedonians are a component of the Greek nationity, not a separate nationality).
-Mark
Delirium wrote:
I do agree something other than "Macedonian Slavs" would be good. "Macedonian (nationality)" has been proposed on one of the talk pages and seems relatively neutral (since the ancient Macedonians weren't part of a "nationality" by a modern definition, and the modern Greek Macedonians are a component of the Greek nationity, not a separate nationality).
"Nation" is often an ambiguous term. The tendency in English is to equate it with a particular state or country, but it can sometimes represent other groups that see themselves as distinct cultural entities without political independence.
Ec
Ray Saintonge wrote:
"Nation" is often an ambiguous term. The tendency in English is to equate it with a particular state or country, but it can sometimes represent other groups that see themselves as distinct cultural entities without political independence.
Yes, I agree with that; in this case, *both* meanings are actually used---Even if we take the context to specifically be "Republic of Macedonia" and keep the Greeks out of the picture for the moment, "Macedonian" may mean either *any* citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, or a specific ethnic group within that country (primarily excluding the ethnic-Albanian RoM citizens). For example, "Macedonian Foreign Minister [x]" refers to whoever the foreign minister of the country is, regardless of his or her ethnicity.
The problem with [[Macedonian (ethnicity)]] though, is that northern Greeks /also/ consider themselves to be ethnically Macedonian, which they consider one of the Greek ethnic groups (much like "Pontian", "Cypriot" [although Turkish Cypriots claim this one too], or "Cretan"). Which is of course the whole crux of the RoM vs. FYROM international dispute.
So, if [[Macedonian Slavs]] is offensive, [[Macedonian (nationality)]] is ambiguous, and [[Macedonian (ethnicity)]] is both ambiguous and POV, then what /do/ we use?
-Mark
Why not [[Macedonians]]?
That page can discuss the whole issue, and link to [[Macedonians (FYROM)]], [[Macedonians (Greece)]], and perhaps [[Macedonians (ancient)]].
Mark
On 30/08/05, Delirium delirium@hackish.org wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
"Nation" is often an ambiguous term. The tendency in English is to equate it with a particular state or country, but it can sometimes represent other groups that see themselves as distinct cultural entities without political independence.
Yes, I agree with that; in this case, *both* meanings are actually used---Even if we take the context to specifically be "Republic of Macedonia" and keep the Greeks out of the picture for the moment, "Macedonian" may mean either *any* citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, or a specific ethnic group within that country (primarily excluding the ethnic-Albanian RoM citizens). For example, "Macedonian Foreign Minister [x]" refers to whoever the foreign minister of the country is, regardless of his or her ethnicity.
The problem with [[Macedonian (ethnicity)]] though, is that northern Greeks /also/ consider themselves to be ethnically Macedonian, which they consider one of the Greek ethnic groups (much like "Pontian", "Cypriot" [although Turkish Cypriots claim this one too], or "Cretan"). Which is of course the whole crux of the RoM vs. FYROM international dispute.
So, if [[Macedonian Slavs]] is offensive, [[Macedonian (nationality)]] is ambiguous, and [[Macedonian (ethnicity)]] is both ambiguous and POV, then what /do/ we use?
-Mark
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Yes - simply say "Macedonians" and have a section saying "there are those who debate the exact naming of Macedonians - be they Macedonian Slavs, Macedonian Greeks,..."
Something like that.
James
-----Original Message----- From: wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Mark Williamson Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 8:43 PM To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Macedonian name on English Wikipedia
Why not [[Macedonians]]?
That page can discuss the whole issue, and link to [[Macedonians (FYROM)]], [[Macedonians (Greece)]], and perhaps [[Macedonians (ancient)]].
Mark
On 30/08/05, Delirium delirium@hackish.org wrote:
Ray Saintonge wrote:
"Nation" is often an ambiguous term. The tendency in English is to equate it with a particular state or country, but it can sometimes represent other groups that see themselves as distinct cultural entities without political independence.
Yes, I agree with that; in this case, *both* meanings are actually used---Even if we take the context to specifically be "Republic of Macedonia" and keep the Greeks out of the picture for the moment, "Macedonian" may mean either *any* citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, or a specific ethnic group within that country (primarily excluding the ethnic-Albanian RoM citizens). For example, "Macedonian Foreign Minister [x]" refers to whoever the foreign minister of the country is, regardless of his or her ethnicity.
The problem with [[Macedonian (ethnicity)]] though, is that northern Greeks /also/ consider themselves to be ethnically Macedonian, which they consider one of the Greek ethnic groups (much like "Pontian", "Cypriot" [although Turkish Cypriots claim this one too], or "Cretan"). Which is of course the whole crux of the RoM vs. FYROM international dispute.
So, if [[Macedonian Slavs]] is offensive, [[Macedonian (nationality)]] is ambiguous, and [[Macedonian (ethnicity)]] is both ambiguous and POV, then what /do/ we use?
-Mark
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org