Hi.
I just want to add one point to this debate. Wikipedia has escaped massive and targeted vandalism because it has avoided making any real enemies. In my opinion (and experience) _manually_ imposing policy on a self-policed community will result in bitter souls abusing the inherent _systematic_ freedom (that is, that anyone can edit any article).
But haven't we already dealt with such people?
* We've only had to deal with very few of them, so we haven't hit anyone with the skills necessary to damage Wikipedia.
* We've let the ones we've dealt with have their say for a long time first, probably making them spend their frustration, and become mostly bored.
* The IP banning is more a signal than an actual enforcement, and we've been lucky that these people seem to have accepted that signal.
Believe me, IP bans will only last so long. The "wiki miracle" could easily collapse - just looke at some of the IRC networks.
I can't make up my mind either way in the discussion in general here, but I think this is an important point that should not be missed.
-- Daniel
On Sat, 2002-09-07 at 10:36, Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
- The IP banning is more a signal than an actual enforcement, and we've been
lucky that these people seem to have accepted that signal.
Believe me, IP bans will only last so long. The "wiki miracle" could easily collapse - just looke at some of the IRC networks.
This is an important point that needs to be addressed. There *is no effective way* to ban someone from wikipedia, given the way it currently runs. Changing your IP address is trivial, happens all the time to most users, and can be done manually even for those on a fixed link (just use any of the hundreds of available web proxies). The only way to have a remotely effective ban system would be with a much stricter login system, and even that is dubious because of authentication (the standard way to deal with login systems is to tie login to email address, but then it's hardly difficult to obtain as many email addresses as you like). So unless we sign up for Micro$oft Passport or something of the sort (*watches ball of dust fly across deserted marketplace*), we *can't* ban any sufficiently determined troll / vandal / kook from Wikipedia. And trying to do so when it's not effective could just make the problem worse.
A simple question to those who demand Helga should be banned...how? What do we ban? Her username? She posts without one. Her IP address? It changes the next time her internet connection drops, almost certainly. Her entire domain? This catches a bunch of innocent potential Wikipedia contributors, and she can merely relay a connection through a proxy, by which time she's really annoyed with the continual attempts to ban (my guess is that "ban" in the minds of some bannees would become "censor") her and ever more determined to post her opinions. This issue needs to be thought out more...
On 7 Sep 2002, Adam Williamson wrote:
A simple question to those who demand Helga should be banned...how? What do we ban? Her username? She posts without one. Her IP address? It changes the next time her internet connection drops, almost certainly. Her entire domain? This catches a bunch of innocent potential Wikipedia contributors, and she can merely relay a connection through a proxy, by which time she's really annoyed with the continual attempts to ban (my guess is that "ban" in the minds of some bannees would become "censor") her and ever more determined to post her opinions. This issue needs to be thought out more...
I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. If we ban her, we ban her, and that means both the IP and probalby immediate retraction of stuff she posts from other IPs, if it's obviously her work.
I'm sure Helga will understand the message and console herself with Wikipedia continuing to be (in her opinion) a hopelessly biased project that does not deserve her attention.
The problem is not figuring out how to effectively ban someone - that just can't be done. The problem is finguring ot how let someone know they're not wanted on Wikipedia anymore without turning them into enemies. The problem is also that this might very well not be possible - which might in turn settle the entire debate as to whether kooks or "good contributers" are wanted. We might have no choice.
-- Daniel
On Sat, 2002-09-07 at 13:08, Hr. Daniel Mikkelsen wrote:
A simple question to those who demand Helga should be banned...how? What do we ban? Her username? She posts without one. Her IP address? It changes the next time her internet connection drops, almost certainly. Her entire domain? This catches a bunch of innocent potential Wikipedia contributors, and she can merely relay a connection through a proxy, by which time she's really annoyed with the continual attempts to ban (my guess is that "ban" in the minds of some bannees would become "censor") her and ever more determined to post her opinions. This issue needs to be thought out more...
I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. If we ban her, we ban her, and that means both the IP and probalby immediate retraction of stuff she posts from other IPs, if it's obviously her work.
I'm sure Helga will understand the message and console herself with Wikipedia continuing to be (in her opinion) a hopelessly biased project that does not deserve her attention.
The problem is not figuring out how to effectively ban someone - that just can't be done. The problem is finguring ot how let someone know they're not wanted on Wikipedia anymore without turning them into enemies. The problem is also that this might very well not be possible - which might in turn settle the entire debate as to whether kooks or "good contributers" are wanted. We might have no choice.
That's actually more or less what I meant :). Since a ban can't actually really be a ban, it's more a measure of censure. Which means it should be compared to other measures of censure open to us in terms of effectiveness and likely negative consequences. It just seemed lots of people were posting things like "Helga has to go", which implies that they really think this is a state of affairs that's possible...
I went looking for a complete listing of the various tables for Wikipedia today, intent on creating some new database queries, and couldn't find one in Wikipedia. Is there one online somewhere else, or does one have to delve into the PHP code or download the full 55MB database dump?
Adam Williamson wrote:
A simple question to those who demand Helga should be banned...how? What do we ban? Her username? She posts without one. Her IP address? It changes the next time her internet connection drops, almost certainly.
Actually, she appears to post from a fixed IP.
You are right, of course, that as a technical matter, an anonymous open system like wiki is always vulnerable to attack from someone sufficiently determined. The question is: is it possible to raise the threshold cost for the attacker sufficiently high to deter them, without also raising the threshold cost by enough to deter other, legitimate contributors.
--Jimbo
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