I took the current www.wikipedia.org page and added an auto-selection based on the browser language settings. This example recognizes all the languages with 10.000+ articles:
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal2.php
Try to set your browser to Russian or Esperanto and see what happens :-) If the language preference is not recognized, no selection appear.
It's basically the same page at www.wikipedia.org, with a few lines of php inserted. I copied over wikimedia's stylesheets and images since hitting wikipedia servers was too slow. Japanese and Chinese characters might be incorrect since I don't have them installed and I have no idea of what I put on the page :-))
Source on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Portal_code
Alfio
Alfio Puglisi (puglisi@arcetri.astro.it) [050110 06:25]:
I took the current www.wikipedia.org page and added an auto-selection based on the browser language settings. This example recognizes all the languages with 10.000+ articles: http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal2.php Source on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Portal_code
Nice one!
A wikipedia.ch style search box for the 50,000+ languages would be nice, and would invite people to do something. (wikipedia.ch has a search box followed by four 'Search' buttons in different languages to search that Wikipedia.) Although I believe search is still switched off ... perhaps a 'Go' button in the 50k+ languages? Is that possible with PHP just in that page?
(Of course, there's a good reason not to do *too* much special with the top several languages: at some point other languages are going to make that list, and if we ever want to prune it back they'll resent being dropped from that status.)
- d.
On 9 Jan 2005, at 20:40, David Gerard wrote:
(Of course, there's a good reason not to do *too* much special with the top several languages: at some point other languages are going to make that list, and if we ever want to prune it back they'll resent being dropped from that status.)
My thinking is that ''instead'' of sticking with the exact numbers 50 000 + 10 000–50 000 1000–10 000 and 100–1000 as selection criteria and promoting the various language Wikipedias higher as they meet higher thresholds, again, ''INSTEAD'' of doing that, we should keep roughly four groups and just ''adjust the thresholds''.
So if in the future we were to have, say, 12 Wikipedias over 50 000 and 30 Wikipedias over 10 000, we should NOT have 12 and 35 items (respectively) in the top two groups, but we should adjust the thresholds -- of the top 12, maybe only 6 might be over 500 000 and of the 35 maybe only 15 might be over 50 000. So we simply make change the 4 group's thresholds to, for example: 500 000 + 50 000–500 000 10 000–50 000 and 100–10 000
This would rightly give emphasis to our "most wanted" Wikipedias and avoids cluttering the screen too much.
This concept only would need to be changed if, say, our 30 biggest Wikipedias were to turn out becoming very similarly sized.
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com
As a member of the Dutch Wikipedia I would like to protest the current division in categories by number of articles, especially when the highest category is called "the 5 largest Wikipedias". The Dutch Wikipedia is larger than the Swedish, we just have that size spread out over less articles. Apparently that is a feat that is not being appreciated by the international community.
Andre Engels
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:44:08 +0100, Jens Ropers ropers@ropersonline.com wrote:
On 9 Jan 2005, at 20:40, David Gerard wrote:
(Of course, there's a good reason not to do *too* much special with the top several languages: at some point other languages are going to make that list, and if we ever want to prune it back they'll resent being dropped from that status.)
My thinking is that ''instead'' of sticking with the exact numbers 50 000 + 10 000–50 000 1000–10 000 and 100–1000 as selection criteria and promoting the various language Wikipedias higher as they meet higher thresholds, again, ''INSTEAD'' of doing that, we should keep roughly four groups and just ''adjust the thresholds''.
So if in the future we were to have, say, 12 Wikipedias over 50 000 and 30 Wikipedias over 10 000, we should NOT have 12 and 35 items (respectively) in the top two groups, but we should adjust the thresholds -- of the top 12, maybe only 6 might be over 500 000 and of the 35 maybe only 15 might be over 50 000. So we simply make change the 4 group's thresholds to, for example: 500 000 + 50 000–500 000 10 000–50 000 and 100–10 000
This would rightly give emphasis to our "most wanted" Wikipedias and avoids cluttering the screen too much.
This concept only would need to be changed if, say, our 30 biggest Wikipedias were to turn out becoming very similarly sized.
-- ropers [[en:User:Ropers]] www.ropersonline.com _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Andre Engels (andreengels@gmail.com) [050112 02:13]:
As a member of the Dutch Wikipedia I would like to protest the current division in categories by number of articles, especially when the highest category is called "the 5 largest Wikipedias". The Dutch Wikipedia is larger than the Swedish, we just have that size spread out over less articles. Apparently that is a feat that is not being appreciated by the international community.
You haven't been reading the list, have you? I've been pointing it out repeatedly ... you should go through and reply to some of the messages so far.
That said, the 50k division is arbitrary and you have about 2500 articles to go.
*That* said, I think we do need some sort of division on the portal page - otherwise it'll be even worse visually.
(And I so hope Klingon doesn't make 100 articles.)
- d.
DG> (And I so hope Klingon doesn't make 100 articles.) DG> - d.
If it does, it will be displayed as Tlhingan anyway :)
Paweł 'Ausir' Dembowski wrote:
DG> (And I so hope Klingon doesn't make 100 articles.) DG> - d.
If it does, it will be displayed as Tlhingan anyway :)
That's bound to make it more popular ;-) The people whou would dismiss Klingon as silly will now be attracted to Tlhingan just to find out what that is.
Ec
On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 04:13:05PM +0100, Andre Engels wrote:
As a member of the Dutch Wikipedia I would like to protest the current division in categories by number of articles, especially when the highest category is called "the 5 largest Wikipedias". The Dutch Wikipedia is larger than the Swedish, we just have that size spread out over less articles. Apparently that is a feat that is not being appreciated by the international community.
And as we're at it, the Polish Wikipedia is also larger than Swedish, we're just not overstubbing like them.
We have already discussed why outright auto-selection is a BAD idea. It's horrible for usability. I used to have my auto-accept language set as Japanese, but my preferred language is English. I would not appreciate being sent to ja.wikipedia.
Mark
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:25:13 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi puglisi@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
I took the current www.wikipedia.org page and added an auto-selection based on the browser language settings. This example recognizes all the languages with 10.000+ articles:
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal2.php
Try to set your browser to Russian or Esperanto and see what happens :-) If the language preference is not recognized, no selection appear.
It's basically the same page at www.wikipedia.org, with a few lines of php inserted. I copied over wikimedia's stylesheets and images since hitting wikipedia servers was too slow. Japanese and Chinese characters might be incorrect since I don't have them installed and I have no idea of what I put on the page :-))
Source on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Portal_code
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Have a look at Alfios proposal first: it doesn't redirect via autoselection, but has a line saying: "Wikipedia in your language: <language>" on top of the actual portal. It's a pretty solution for the highlighting problem.
Till
We have already discussed why outright auto-selection is a BAD idea. It's horrible for usability. I used to have my auto-accept language set as Japanese, but my preferred language is English. I would not appreciate being sent to ja.wikipedia.
Mark
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:25:13 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi puglisi@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
I took the current www.wikipedia.org page and added an auto-selection based on the browser language settings. This example recognizes all the languages with 10.000+ articles:
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal2.php
Try to set your browser to Russian or Esperanto and see what happens :-) If the language preference is not recognized, no selection appear.
It's basically the same page at www.wikipedia.org, with a few lines of php inserted. I copied over wikimedia's stylesheets and images since hitting wikipedia servers was too slow. Japanese and Chinese characters might be incorrect since I don't have them installed and I have no idea of what I put on the page :-))
Source on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Portal_code
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Hirschstraße 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Alfio Puglisi wrote:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Hoi, I like it, it is a nice experiment, one thing you could add is the template with all the sisterprojects. A great example of what this could look like can be found on the Commons Main Page. Another thing to enhance it, is by adding the picture of the day as featured on Commons. You add a little colour and a picture and as a result it is a bit more cheerfull. :)
Thanks, GerardM
Gerard Meijssen (gerardm@myrealbox.com) [050111 04:09]:
Alfio Puglisi wrote:
Please now have a look at http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php (note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
Nice one! It just needs to translate the text below as well (which currently says "Complete list - Multilingual coordination - Start a Wikipedia in another language".
I like it, it is a nice experiment, one thing you could add is the template with all the sisterprojects. A great example of what this could look like can be found on the Commons Main Page. Another thing to enhance it, is by adding the picture of the day as featured on Commons. You add a little colour and a picture and as a result it is a bit more cheerfull. :)
Yes, that left side needs to look better. Certainly the logo could do with "The Free Encyclopedia" in the six (soon seven or nine) top languages.
One good thing about the present page is that it pretty much fits in a browser window without scrolling. This should be retained if workable.
A request to Tim Starling (or whoever): The present page has a template that anyone can edit and a template that only sysops on meta can edit. Would it be possible to set up a test page where both are editable, to facilitate trying ideas out?
- d.
I like that option. Now, we could even put a bit of editorial content based on language recognition (not too much) and some images to improve the looks. Don't you think it would be nice ?
Ant
Alfio Puglisi a écrit:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Sure, but I'm unable to do any graphics work apart from black text on white background :-) If someone does an aesthetically pleasing html page I can modify it to be language-dynamic.
BTW I added the localized logo instead of the generic one.
Alfio
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Anthere wrote:
I like that option. Now, we could even put a bit of editorial content based on language recognition (not too much) and some images to improve the looks. Don't you think it would be nice ?
Ant
Alfio Puglisi a �crit:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Again, any browser-setting based redirect or even not a redirect but a simple "your language: xxx" notice suffers from problems I have already enumerated.
Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:03:53 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi puglisi@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Without language detection you only have two options:
- a page with ONLY the languages listing, like the European portal proposed by Sj - a page in English, hoping that the majority of the online community can read it.
The current page at www.wikipedia.org is a compromise with a language listing, some English-only content, and some limited multilanguage content.
Detecting the language enables you to, at least, present what would normally be English-only in a language that your reader understands.
Alfio
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Mark Williamson wrote:
Again, any browser-setting based redirect or even not a redirect but a simple "your language: xxx" notice suffers from problems I have already enumerated.
Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:03:53 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi puglisi@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
MW> Again, any browser-setting based redirect or even not a redirect but a MW> simple "your language: xxx" notice suffers from problems I have MW> already enumerated.
How is a notice based on the browser language of the user's choice a bad idea escapes me. It makes it easier for people who want to use Wikipedia in their browser language, and for the others, who are most likely a minority, the other languages are still listed.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Mark,
Again, any browser-setting based redirect or even not a redirect but a simple "your language: xxx" notice suffers from problems I have already enumerated.
What is the problem with an "your language: German" according to my browser settings and the possiblity for me to select "English", "Alemmanisch" or even "Tagalog" in the list below? I don't understand why this new proposal -- which is helpful in prominently showing a language the user is understanding and using according to his/her browser settings, but let's them decide if they want to use this or another -- is dangerous. Looks to me more like a "oh, so no one will edit the small languages anymore" issue.
Till
Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:03:53 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi puglisi@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Hirschstraße 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . .
"As noted before, it will minimize the other options. If Dutch is featured prominently because it is set as the auto-accept language, somebody is less likely to notice that W. Frisian, Limburgish, Afrikaans, etc. are also available.
As Ant noted in another thread on the same topic (really, this is getting out of hand), the French reporters who didn't know that fr: existed... this would be similar, and potentially millions of users could be inconvenienced by it. Some Wikipedias link prominently (or at least somewhat prominently) to other languages spoken in the same region: Afrikaans links to other South African languages, Hindi links to other Indian languages, Chinese links to the other languages of China, etc. But some languages, for example English, cannot afford this because there are just too many languages (English has Inuktitut, French, Spanish, Navajo, Maori, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Chinese, Malay, Hebrew, Yiddish, Afrikaans, and plenty of other languages).
Mark"
Thus, if a man whose first language is Frisian sees:
N E D E R L A N D S
(Arabiyy) Afrikaans (B'lgarskij) (Belaruski) (Bam'la) Català Corsu Czestina Dansk Deutsch English Faroese Français Frysk ('elliniká) ...
you can see how much more likely they will be to end up at the Nederlands Wikipedia even if they would rather've gone to fy.wikipedia - one is shoved up in their face, the other one is further down the list and chances are they won't even know it exists. The same is true for anybody with English set as their browser language but who prefers another language (many people in India, Pakistan...), or any other language which has a similar situation.
Mark
On 10 Jan 2005 22:02:00 +0100, Till Westermayer till@tillwe.de wrote:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . till we *) . . .
Hi Mark,
Again, any browser-setting based redirect or even not a redirect but a simple "your language: xxx" notice suffers from problems I have already enumerated.
What is the problem with an "your language: German" according to my browser settings and the possiblity for me to select "English", "Alemmanisch" or even "Tagalog" in the list below? I don't understand why this new proposal -- which is helpful in prominently showing a language the user is understanding and using according to his/her browser settings, but let's them decide if they want to use this or another -- is dangerous. Looks to me more like a "oh, so no one will edit the small languages anymore" issue.
Till
Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:03:53 +0100 (MET), Alfio Puglisi puglisi@arcetri.astro.it wrote:
Please now have a look at
http://www.tommasoconforti.com/portal3.php
(note the "3"). Only works with English, German, French and Italian browser settings, to save on typing. Any errors are Google translation fault:-))
This version translates all the top banner and adds "Go" box with text in your language, and a drop-down selection of the available languages, with yours selected first. Try changing your browser from en: to fr: or it:.
If you change the language preference and reload, your browser might retain the drop-down box selection (Firefox does), so you won't see the new one automatically selected. In that case, try clearing your cache (Firefox has a special cache for form data that needs to be cleared).
Strings are hard-coded inside the script. Moving them to an external configuration file is not a problem.
Alfio
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
__ . / / / / ... Till Westermayer - till we *) . . . mailto:till@tillwe.de . www.westermayer.de/till/ . icq 320393072 . Hirschstraße 5. 79100 Freiburg . 0761 55697152 . 0160 96619179 . . . . . _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Alfio Puglisi schreef:
I took the current www.wikipedia.org page and added an auto-selection based on the browser language settings. This example recognizes all the languages with 10.000+ articles:
I like this. Auto redirect; NO. But this type of use of the browser languages settings is good.
As noted before, it will minimize the other options. If Dutch is featured prominently because it is set as the auto-accept language, somebody is less likely to notice that W. Frisian, Limburgish, Afrikaans, etc. are also available.
As Ant noted in another thread on the same topic (really, this is getting out of hand), the French reporters who didn't know that fr: existed... this would be similar, and potentially millions of users could be inconvenienced by it. Some Wikipedias link prominently (or at least somewhat prominently) to other languages spoken in the same region: Afrikaans links to other South African languages, Hindi links to other Indian languages, Chinese links to the other languages of China, etc. But some languages, for example English, cannot afford this because there are just too many languages (English has Inuktitut, French, Spanish, Navajo, Maori, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Cornish, Chinese, Malay, Hebrew, Yiddish, Afrikaans, and plenty of other languages).
Mark
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 01:21:21 +0100, Walter Vermeir walter@wikipedia.be wrote:
Alfio Puglisi schreef:
I took the current www.wikipedia.org page and added an auto-selection based on the browser language settings. This example recognizes all the languages with 10.000+ articles:
I like this. Auto redirect; NO. But this type of use of the browser languages settings is good.
-- [[w:nl:gebruiker:walter]] _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Mark Williamson wrote:
As noted before, it will minimize the other options. If Dutch is featured prominently because it is set as the auto-accept language, somebody is less likely to notice that W. Frisian, Limburgish, Afrikaans, etc. are also available.
Did you look at the page? The selected page is shown as big as the 5 major languages, while the other languages are smaller. If that's not acceptable, then also the current www.wikipedia.org portal is not.
Alfio
AP> Did you look at the page? The selected page is shown as big as the 5 major AP> languages, while the other languages are smaller. If that's not AP> acceptable, then also the current www.wikipedia.org portal is not. AP> Alfio
It would be better if the text was also in that language.
wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org