Hi,
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
greetings, elian
On 28/11/05, Elisabeth Bauer elian@djini.de wrote:
Hi,
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
greetings, elian _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I support this decision. On Moldovan Wikipedia (http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page), he was the only person stubbornly defending the existance itself of this de facto dead Wikipedia, that - in my opinion - has no other effect than to denaturate the present day reality about Moldova (as no one writes, reads or uses Romanian language with Cyrillic alphabet; apart from the breakaway Transnistria region, where Cyrillic alphabet is imposed to people and where parents are itting in jails for demanding the usage of Latin alphabet in schools). And all this although he is not linked directly what-so-ever nor to Romanians, nor to Moldovans, nor to Russians, and thus not in knowledge of the cause. The debate on Moldovan Wikipedia has definitely degraded into an endless fight, that has advanced till the English Wikipedia. As I was informed recently by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bonaparte, "It seems that user Node deletes systematic an important part of the text." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language is a good example of such disputes. -- Liviu
Landroni, you're really mischaracterising this situation.
First of all, there are quite a few other users who support the existance of that Wikipedia, most nostably Gabix, Russ, Vertaler, Ronline, and I believe Iulian U.
of Latin alphabet in schools). And all this although he is not linked directly what-so-ever nor to Romanians, nor to Moldovans, nor to Russians, and thus not in knowledge of the cause. The debate on
Despite the fact that until recently, 99% of the articles on that Wikipedia were entirely due to my effort? (more recently, other users, especially Russ, have stepped up the effort).
Moldovan Wikipedia has definitely degraded into an endless fight, that has advanced till the English Wikipedia. As I was informed
No, not really. Perhaps you perceived it that way -- yes, for a while, there were arguments going on. But they were isolated points in the history of mo.wiki -- for the last couple of months, there hasn't been any real argument, and it's just been slow growth.
recently by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bonaparte, "It seems that user Node deletes systematic an important part of the text."
Please see the block log history of Bonaparte, and his contributions. He is relatively new to Wikipedia and already he has caused quite a bit of upset.
Ahh, and it's not possible for me to delete any text on that article -- it's been locked for a few weeks now.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
On 29/11/05, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
First of all, there are quite a few other users who support the existance of that Wikipedia, most nostably Gabix, Russ, Vertaler, Ronline, and I believe Iulian U.
Not denying the support for this Wikipedia from others, still you were the only one that supported it with great fervor. I also have the impression that the supporters of Moldovan Wikipedia are somewhat in minority compared to those desiring that it don't exist.
of Latin alphabet in schools). And all this although he is not linked directly what-so-ever nor to Romanians, nor to Moldovans, nor to Russians, and thus not in knowledge of the cause. The debate on
Despite the fact that until recently, 99% of the articles on that Wikipedia were entirely due to my effort? (more recently, other users, especially Russ, have stepped up the effort).
Mark, the fact that you are the only actual contributor (till lately) to Moldovan Wikipedia is undenyable. Still, you are not nor Moldovan, nor Romanian. You have not lived there, you have never spoken Romanian or "Moldovan". I admire your efforts to write articles in a very foreign language, but I regard these as somehow being in vain. Apart from some passionate contributors and supporters, no one will ever find use for Moldovan Wikipedia other than to make (to himself or to others) a false idea about Moldova, the language spoken there and its links to Russia(n). And I reiterate that you are not in knowledge of the cause (I hope this is the correct English expression). I come from Moldova, I lived there all my life apart from the previous year. No one, but no one uses Cyrillic alphabet for Romanian language. In the villages, yes, maybe, but only by the retired and the almost illiterate. Otherwise villages are empty - everyone works either in the capital, either at black in Europe or Russia. Transnistria - they keep Moldovan language in Cyrillic only from political reasons. Otherwise, only Russian is used there. Go to the Police and speak in Romanian (Moldovan, if you prefer) they will not understand one word. You'll have to switch to Russian.
Moldovan Wikipedia has definitely degraded into an endless fight, that has advanced till the English Wikipedia. As I was informed
No, not really. Perhaps you perceived it that way -- yes, for a while, there were arguments going on. But they were isolated points in the history of mo.wiki -- for the last couple of months, there hasn't been any real argument, and it's just been slow growth.
Agreed with this. But at that time it was endless.
recently by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bonaparte, "It seems that user Node deletes systematic an important part of the text."
Please see the block log history of Bonaparte, and his contributions. He is relatively new to Wikipedia and already he has caused quite a bit of upset.
Regarding Bonaparte, I have already understood my mistake. The next time I will inform myself more. Mark, and regarding this reaction it was probably exagerated, but I was still driven by sentiments from previous debates on mo.wiki.
-- Liviu
First of all, there are quite a few other users who support the existance of that Wikipedia, most nostably Gabix, Russ, Vertaler, Ronline, and I believe Iulian U.
Not denying the support for this Wikipedia from others, still you were the only one that supported it with great fervor. I also have the impression that the supporters of Moldovan Wikipedia are somewhat in minority compared to those desiring that it don't exist.
Landroni, some time ago there was a vote on the existence of that WP, and those supporting its existence were in the majority there.
And the reason I was the only one who supported it with great fervor is that I had put a great deal of work into it, and there you and your cronies were saying "Who cares about the work you've done, we're not happy about this WP, so we want it deleted".
What about "live and let live"? How does the existence of that WP *hurt* you?
Despite the fact that until recently, 99% of the articles on that Wikipedia were entirely due to my effort? (more recently, other users, especially Russ, have stepped up the effort).
Mark, the fact that you are the only actual contributor (till lately) to Moldovan Wikipedia is undenyable. Still, you are not nor Moldovan, nor Romanian. You have not lived there, you have never spoken Romanian or "Moldovan". I admire your efforts to write articles in a very
And you know this how? I have made a number of statements to the contrary and I think that by now I have proved to a satisfactory degree taht you are wrong.
You are the one who thought I was russian, and wrote to me in Russian, and then got all confused when I couldn't understand. So don't go around telling me which languages I can and cannot speak.
foreign language, but I regard these as somehow being in vain. Apart from some passionate contributors and supporters, no one will ever find use for Moldovan Wikipedia other than to make (to himself or to others) a false idea about Moldova, the language spoken there and its
What about those people who prefer Cyrillic? You have belittled them, but you did not deny they exist. They are people too. And you seem to have a very polarised view of the situation in Transnistria.
links to Russia(n). And I reiterate that you are not in knowledge of the cause (I hope this is the correct English expression). I come from Moldova, I lived there all my life apart from the previous year. No one, but no one uses Cyrillic alphabet for Romanian language. In the
no one, except for...
villages, yes, maybe, but only by the retired and the almost illiterate. Otherwise villages are empty - everyone works either in
So some people do use it? Is it then your assertion that these people don't matter, or that they should be ignored?
Wikimedia is a not-for-profit organisation. There is no concept of "marketability" involved. A Wikipedia was recently created for the Pitkern/Norfuk language, which has only a couple of thousand speakers at maximum perhaps. Moldovan in Cyrillic has wider currency than that.
So, as long as _some_ people use it, you'll need better reasons than the ones you've given so far to suppress it.
Some people have mentioned having conversion on ro.wiki between Latin and Cyrillic, but as Ronline said, that is almost definitely never going to happen for reasons of collective Romanian nationalist sentiment -- think of all the angry vandalism that would happen by people upset that somebody was writing their "glorious beautiful language" in the "ugly russian alphabet" (somebody actually used phrases like this on the Moldovan WP).
If you have any better ideas to accomodate these people, other than _ignoring them_, I'll be happy to consider them. But to say that we should ignore them because you don't like Cyrillic Moldovan is a bit selfish.
the capital, either at black in Europe or Russia. Transnistria - they keep Moldovan language in Cyrillic only from political reasons. Otherwise, only Russian is used there. Go to the Police and speak in Romanian (Moldovan, if you prefer) they will not understand one word. You'll have to switch to Russian.
Not sure that's got anything to do with anything. The undeniable fact is that at this very moment, thousands of children in Transnistria are getting an education in Moldovan Cyrillic using Soviet textbooks with poor information. The only hope is that in the future, these kids can read Wikipedia, and get the truth.
No, not really. Perhaps you perceived it that way -- yes, for a while, there were arguments going on. But they were isolated points in the history of mo.wiki -- for the last couple of months, there hasn't been any real argument, and it's just been slow growth.
Agreed with this. But at that time it was endless.
"Endless" means it doesn't have an end, but it's ended, so it isn't endless and it never was.
Regarding Bonaparte, I have already understood my mistake. The next time I will inform myself more. Mark, and regarding this reaction it was probably exagerated, but I was still driven by sentiments from previous debates on mo.wiki.
If I recall correctly, you participated in a very minimal capacity in debates at mo.wiki. You voted for some things, posted a couple of paragraphs, but other than that never said anything. That pales in comparison to Duca, Goie, and Mihaita, all of whom are Romanians...
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
Hi,
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
Dances :) and cheers .......
Waerth/Walter
Walter van Kalken wrote:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
Dances :) and cheers .......
I think this is not a very constructive reaction either.
regards, Gerrit, who disagrees with the moderation decision.
On 11/28/05, Gerrit Holl gerrit@nl.linux.org wrote:
Walter van Kalken wrote:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
Dances :) and cheers .......
I think this is not a very constructive reaction either.
regards, Gerrit, who disagrees with the moderation decision.
Agreed on both counts. If Mark is moderated from this list in part due to his language posts, then we absolutely need a separate mailing list for discussing new language proposals.
This and the recent blocking/censorship of wonderfool leave a very sour taste in my mouth.
SJ
On 11/29/05, SJ 2.718281828@gmail.com wrote:
Agreed on both counts. If Mark is moderated from this list in part due to his language posts, then we absolutely need a separate mailing list for discussing new language proposals.
Agreed. I have only periphally participated in discussions on this list, but while I find Mark's posting history to be, shall we say, voluminous, his language posts bring important subjects to a wider audience, and I have always gotten the impression that he is acting in good faith. I haven't received the same impression from some of his detractors.
Steve
That's quite fine.
But it doesn't seem right, seeing as you don't often read my e-mails. If you did, perhaps it would make sense, but seeing as you don't, I think such a decision should come from somebody who reads all of my messages.
Mark
On 28/11/05, Elisabeth Bauer elian@djini.de wrote:
Hi,
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
greetings, elian _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
In my opinion moderation is not at all necessary. It was at least two sides that were behaving impolite. FWIW, I disagree with this decision.
Gerrit.
Gerrit Holl wrote:
Elisabeth Bauer wrote:
I usually don't read the postings of Mark Williamson (only the answers to his) but now I accidentally saw that he has forwarded the private email of another wikipedian to the list. Add to this the frequent flame-wars and attacks on people... Watching the list degrade into endless fights about absurd language proposals, in my opinion it's enough. I switched his account to moderated now.
In my opinion moderation is not at all necessary. It was at least two sides that were behaving impolite. FWIW, I disagree with this decision.
Gerrit.
I am not very happy with this decision either.
Granted, Mark is flooding us sometimes and I wish he refrains himself a bit in the amount of mails. Mark, could you really *try* please not to flood us ?
Also, some of his recent past mails were frankly borderline as far as politness goes. So, giving him a break to notify disapproval is fair and I agree with Elian decision to put him on moderation.
Now... I went to the moderation interface. There are 4 mails of Mark there. This does not qualify as spam in terms of amount. None of the mails are abusive in any way. Still, none of the mails have been posted...
So, what is exactly moderation ? If mails are not posted, it is not moderation, it is censorship. So, I release the mails and will remove the moderation block soon.
Ant
On 11/30/05, Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Gerrit Holl wrote:
In my opinion moderation is not at all necessary. It was at least two sides that were behaving impolite. FWIW, I disagree with this decision.
Gerrit.
I do wish he were more polite more of the time. However I don't normally find his posts offensive; he is certainly far less so than many of the trolls whom we have allowed to bombard this list with what truly amounts to spam.
So, what is exactly moderation ? If mails are not posted, it is not moderation, it is censorship. So, I release the mails and will remove the moderation block soon.
Thank you. I was wondering whether he had simply stopped posting...
++SJ
SJ wrote:
On 11/30/05, Anthere Anthere9@yahoo.com wrote:
Gerrit Holl wrote:
In my opinion moderation is not at all necessary. It was at least two sides that were behaving impolite. FWIW, I disagree with this decision.
Gerrit.
I do wish he were more polite more of the time. However I don't normally find his posts offensive; he is certainly far less so than many of the trolls whom we have allowed to bombard this list with what truly amounts to spam.
So, what is exactly moderation ? If mails are not posted, it is not moderation, it is censorship. So, I release the mails and will remove the moderation block soon.
Thank you. I was wondering whether he had simply stopped posting...
++SJ
Released another one. Unless someone disagree and have good arguments, I will remove the moderation on monday.
ant
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