Ronline wrote:
I'll give you a hypothetical case. In Switzerland, Italian is an official language. Now let's say that until 1990, Swiss Italian was written in a different alphabet. After 1990, there was a significant movement to revert back to the Latin alphabet, and nowadays everyone uses Latin alphabet in Switzerland when writing Italian, except for a few who still prefer the old alphabet. Would it.wiki accept this new alphabet as part of a biscriptal Wikipedia? Considering that, say, out of a total of 70 million Italian speakers, only about 200,000 people still write in this strange alphabet,and of those, 180,000 can write well in the Latin alphabet? The case is similar to what the Moldovan-Cyrillic case is today.
As a total outsider who has never been to Moldova, one more aspect has come to my mind while reading the above lines:
Does the fact that a small minority of people might prefer to use the Cyrillic script for private purposes justify the enormous effort of building an entire encyclopedia for them - while they know the Latin script?
My point is: if a society generelly uses one script (which seems to be so according to everything I have heard from our fellow Wikipedians who know the country as well as the language) it doesn't really matter if an individual likes another script better. They will have to adapt to the common standard if they want to read the paper, a current book, the phone book, the signs in public places, labels on products etc., make they annual tax declaration, do business, get a job, ride a train ... So are any severe reasons for Wikipedia to make an exception here?
Having said that, there is still one open question: the issue of Transnistria which does not make things easier and may not be forgotten, of course.
But luckily, there are quite a number of Wikipedians here who know much, much more about the whole situation than I do - and they all seem determined to bring about an intelligent solution. So I am convinced the issue will be settled for good pretty soon.
Arbeo
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As a total outsider who has never been to Moldova, one more aspect has come to my mind while reading the above lines:
Does the fact that a small minority of people might prefer to use the Cyrillic script for private purposes justify the enormous effort of building an entire encyclopedia for them - while they know the Latin script?
My point is: if a society generelly uses one script (which seems to be so according to everything I have heard from our fellow Wikipedians who know the country as well as the language) it doesn't really matter if an individual likes another script better. They will have to adapt to the common standard if they want to read the paper, a current book, the phone book, the signs in public places, labels on products etc., make they annual tax declaration, do business, get a job, ride a train ... So are any severe reasons for Wikipedia to make an exception here?
In Moldova proper, virtually everyone knows how to read/write Latin script, because the government isn't allowed to use Cyrillic script (it's unconstitutional, since Latin is specified as offical script). The case is quite interesting - in rural areas, less people actually write in Cyrillic, because rural areas are much less Russified. In urban areas, those who previously wrote in Cyrillic have been accustomed so far to ubiquitous text in Latin. So, as I said before, I don't think this Cyrillic script Wikipedia serves any really practical purpose.
Having said that, there is still one open question: the issue of
Transnistria which does not make things easier and may not be forgotten, of course.
Yes, Cyrillic is official there. Remember, though, that Transnistria is basically the continuation of the Moldavian SSR (Soviet Moldova) - it has the same flag, it operates under a dictatorial structure, and it's maintained Moldovan-Cyrillic. There was media coverage some time ago that the Transnistrian government had closed down Moldovan-Latin schools, which were quite plentiful. Romanians/Moldovans in Transnistria are quite widely persecuted and basically unrepresented politically. Their "emotional" links to Moldova and to an extent Romania are therefore quite strong. I presume about half of those people would know and prefer the Latin alphabet, which leaves about 100,000 people that would actually write in Cyrillic and may have some trouble reading/writing Latin script.
In Moldova proper, virtually everyone knows how to read/write Latin script,
Do you know this for certain?
because the government isn't allowed to use Cyrillic script (it's unconstitutional, since Latin is specified as offical script).
Well, did you know that governments can't deal with 100% of their citizens using writing? In Moldova, somewhere between 1% and 4% of the citizens are illiterate altogether (can't read or write). How does the government deal with these people? And why couldn't they deal the same way with Cyrillic people??
The case is quite interesting - in rural areas, less people actually write in Cyrillic, because rural areas are much less Russified.
Ronline, that's simply not true. You know that's not true, because you and I had a lengthy discussion on it at Talk:Moldovan_language, where I provided you with a source which documents the fact that in rural areas Cyrillic is more used. Rural areas are less _Russified_, yes. But simply using Cyrillic to write Moldovan has nothing to do with being Russified -- in 1980, even monolinguals used Cyrillic to write the language, no matter whether they were from the city or the countryside.
But consider this case: A farmer, Gheorghe Curechi, went to school in the Soviet period. He left school when he turned 14 so he could work in the fields. At his school, he learned some good stuff, but only a little bit of Russian. Most of his schooling was in his hearth language, a language he calls Moldovan because that's what his teacher at school told him it was named.
He isn't an idiot, he isn't behind the times, he knows very well that Moldova is now called "Republica Moldova" instead of RSSM. And he knows that since 1989, his language is now written using the "French alphabet", like the language of the neighbouring country, Romanian, has been for as long as he knew.
His grandchildren learn this alphabet at school, but he doesn't really know it. He can read some of the basic things. He doesn't get the newspaper, but if he did, he wouldn't be able to read it.
He keeps a diary, which he writes in every day. He does it to keep his wits sharp, since he lives alone. And of course, he uses Cyrillic.
The last time he went into town, a few months ago, he had no troubles understanding anybody, but he didn't know what most of the signs meant because they were mostly written in the "French alphabet" which he doesn't know.
Gheorghe doesn't really care to learn the Latin alphabet because he doesn't have much need for it. He has a few dusty old books in his posession, their covers have fallen off. Three of them are in Russian so he doesn't really understand them, but the other ones are all written in Moldovan-Cyrillic. He has already read them though, and he doesn't have much use for them anyhow.
This story is obviously fictional -- It'd be a bit funny if there were really some farmer named "gheorghe curechi" (or as he spells it, reopre kypekb).
previously wrote in Cyrillic have been accustomed so far to ubiquitous text in Latin.
What about my example with Mr Curechi? What need would he ever have for the Latin alphabet?
You could argue that he doesn't use Wikipedia either because he doesn't have a computer. Well, we could use the same criteria to argue to get rid of most Wikipedias in African languages. But there is the hope that someday, a printed version might be made, and it could be distributed.
Surely we shouldn't just ignore the minority of Moldovans who are like Mr KYPEKb?
So, as I said before, I don't think this Cyrillic script Wikipedia serves any really practical purpose.
The people who work on it now (not just me) disagree... otherwise, they'd just be wastingtheir time.
Their "emotional" links to Moldova and to an extent Romania are therefore quite strong.
Sources, please?
I presume about half of those people would know and prefer the Latin alphabet, which leaves about 100,000 people that would actually write in Cyrillic and may have some trouble reading/writing Latin script.
Well, even if it is just 100,000 total, that's still not a negligible number.
Mark
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
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