Message: 2 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:59:43 -0300 From: sgilbert@nbnet.nb.ca Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re:Culte, cult, secte, sect To: wikipedia-l@Wikipedia.org Message-ID: 3F5091AF.9755.14672EC7@localhost Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Matt M. (that's what the header says, but I think it may have been Anthere) wrote:

...

That is a tricky word, not to mistranslate unintentionnally :-)

of course that is me :-) I wonder how you recognised my unmistakable english :-)

It's a tricky word to use, too. One person's "cult" is another's religion. Many conservative Christians consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints ("Mormonism") a cult, but I doubt such a label would stand in the state of Utah.

Some people argue that a cult is simply a newer religion that hasn't yet established itself. The word "sect" is more neutral; the term "new religious movement" is sometimes used in academic research. In most cases, when we call a group a "cult" in Wikipedia we should probably attribute it.

Stephen G.

That was one of the contentious points in july, on the article secte (your cult).

the etymological origin of secte meant it was a division of a religion, or one part of a religion following a specific guru . Quite neutral and non pejorative definition.

We gave another definition which is a religious extremist group, not very well integrated by social standards

The more modern definition we finally settled on is highly disparaging. It does not limit itself to religious groups anymore, and is about a group which is dangerous for its members.

It usually refer to groups which practice some of the following, mental manipulation, power centralization in the hands of a guru or a small group of people, with a pyramidal organisation, with money exactions, and a doctrine that can not be disputed.

Note that we could say catholic religion to be there, so additional points usually come along to avoid this : It often rather refer to small groups in terms of members, new organisations and often organisations not very well integrated in a society.

Along those definitions, a french public commission established a list of organisations listed as sects.

The issue is highly contentious on Wikipedia because anti-sects wanted the list to appear on the secte article, as THE list of sectes. This is only a french definition and judgement of what a sect is.

At the same time, some wanted some religions not cited in the report to appear as well (such a the catholic religion, with the Pape as its guru)

And some wanted some religious to be removed from the list.

After lengthy discussion, there is a list appearing in the sect article, under the title "groups usually considered as sect", with a disclaimer below, stating who established this list.

I am very unhappy with this list, because it is limited to the french public position and the fact it is written "usually". Are listed secte (with the above definition), some organisations that are in other places in the worlds just regular religions.

Examples

Aumisme Jehovah witnesses Mormonisme Moonisme

Now, it is easy in an article, to discuss whether a group should be said a secte or not, and to attribute position, but when in a list, this is much tougher :-)

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