It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it: 1. Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the Moldovan dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact alone should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :) 2. I have relatives in the Republic of Moldova, and I know what they have no linguistic identity problems. Just take a look in the list of Moldovan editors: regardless of official politics (aimed at preserving good relations with Russia), not one is for a moldovan wikipedia. 3. My participation into this discussion was subject to one strong rule: I have never entered in conflict with a Moldovan editor, for I believe they have the moral authority to do what they want with mo.wiki. What I have done was in line with their requirements.
Yours, [[:en:Dpotop]]
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It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it:
- Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the Moldovan
dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact alone should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :)
Somehow I doubt you are able to read and write "correctly" in Cyrillic.
- I have relatives in the Republic of Moldova, and I know what they have
no linguistic identity problems. Just take a look in the list of Moldovan editors: regardless of official politics (aimed at preserving good relations with Russia), not one is for a moldovan wikipedia.
Five or six "Moldovan editors" voted. There is no proof that they are all separate people or that they are all even Moldovans. Some of them barely have 25 edits, or registered within the duration of the vote. Anyhow, even if they were all confirmable as real people with hundreds of edits, 6 editors voting for the deletion of a Wikipedia are hardly enough for it to be a for-sure thing.
- My participation into this discussion was subject to one strong rule: I have never entered in conflict with a Moldovan editor, for I believe they have the moral authority to do what they want with mo.wiki. What I have done was in line with their requirements.
That's because you've downright never communicated with a Moldovan editor. They are elusive creatures. The only ones who make more than the occasional appearance aren't living in Moldova, examples being Oleg Alexandrov (California) and Liviu Andronic (Toulouse). Then there is Serhio Dudnic (who is in Chisinau), but he didn't want to get involved and all he said is that although he claims to speak Romanian, he believes everybody can choose their own name (more or less).
All other Moldovan editors showed up and then left within a matter of days; some made only one edit.
There are a couple of exceptions. But including all of the Moldovan editors, there are a few who do support a Moldovan-Cyrillic WP, and a few who are ambivalent.
Mark
Moldovan only exist politically, not linguistically so I've been told (confirmed by Moldovans). I don't think that is a good 'starting point' to set up a wiki (not very neutral as Wikipedia says it should be)
Serv
2006/3/7, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it:
- Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the
Moldovan
dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact
alone
should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even
read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :)
Somehow I doubt you are able to read and write "correctly" in Cyrillic.
- I have relatives in the Republic of Moldova, and I know what they
have
no linguistic identity problems. Just take a look in the list of
Moldovan
editors: regardless of official politics (aimed at preserving good
relations
with Russia), not one is for a moldovan wikipedia.
Five or six "Moldovan editors" voted. There is no proof that they are all separate people or that they are all even Moldovans. Some of them barely have 25 edits, or registered within the duration of the vote. Anyhow, even if they were all confirmable as real people with hundreds of edits, 6 editors voting for the deletion of a Wikipedia are hardly enough for it to be a for-sure thing.
- My participation into this discussion was subject to one strong
rule: I have never entered in conflict with a Moldovan editor, for I believe they have the moral authority to do what they want with mo.wiki. What I have done was in line with their requirements.
That's because you've downright never communicated with a Moldovan editor. They are elusive creatures. The only ones who make more than the occasional appearance aren't living in Moldova, examples being Oleg Alexandrov (California) and Liviu Andronic (Toulouse). Then there is Serhio Dudnic (who is in Chisinau), but he didn't want to get involved and all he said is that although he claims to speak Romanian, he believes everybody can choose their own name (more or less).
All other Moldovan editors showed up and then left within a matter of days; some made only one edit.
There are a couple of exceptions. But including all of the Moldovan editors, there are a few who do support a Moldovan-Cyrillic WP, and a few who are ambivalent.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
I don't think that's particularly relevant. At least 30% of Moldovans claim to speak Moldovan as their mother tongue.
Perhaps as a language separate from Romanian, it exists only politically, but as a linguistic entity, it certainly exists truly.
One could easily move the Cyrillic content to a "Romanian in Cyrillic Wikipedia", but that would be absurd -- every person who writes or has ever written this language in Cyrillic, calls it Moldovan.
It's essentially an issue of naming that you're bringing up, while the bigger issue at hand is one of Cyrillic script and politics.
Mark
On 07/03/06, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com wrote:
Moldovan only exist politically, not linguistically so I've been told (confirmed by Moldovans). I don't think that is a good 'starting point' to set up a wiki (not very neutral as Wikipedia says it should be)
Serv
2006/3/7, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it:
- Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the
Moldovan
dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact
alone
should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even
read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :)
Somehow I doubt you are able to read and write "correctly" in Cyrillic.
- I have relatives in the Republic of Moldova, and I know what they
have
no linguistic identity problems. Just take a look in the list of
Moldovan
editors: regardless of official politics (aimed at preserving good
relations
with Russia), not one is for a moldovan wikipedia.
Five or six "Moldovan editors" voted. There is no proof that they are all separate people or that they are all even Moldovans. Some of them barely have 25 edits, or registered within the duration of the vote. Anyhow, even if they were all confirmable as real people with hundreds of edits, 6 editors voting for the deletion of a Wikipedia are hardly enough for it to be a for-sure thing.
- My participation into this discussion was subject to one strong
rule: I have never entered in conflict with a Moldovan editor, for I believe they have the moral authority to do what they want with mo.wiki. What I have done was in line with their requirements.
That's because you've downright never communicated with a Moldovan editor. They are elusive creatures. The only ones who make more than the occasional appearance aren't living in Moldova, examples being Oleg Alexandrov (California) and Liviu Andronic (Toulouse). Then there is Serhio Dudnic (who is in Chisinau), but he didn't want to get involved and all he said is that although he claims to speak Romanian, he believes everybody can choose their own name (more or less).
All other Moldovan editors showed up and then left within a matter of days; some made only one edit.
There are a couple of exceptions. But including all of the Moldovan editors, there are a few who do support a Moldovan-Cyrillic WP, and a few who are ambivalent.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Mark Williamson wrote:
It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it: 1. Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the Moldovan dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact alone should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :)
Somehow I doubt you are able to read and write "correctly" in Cyrillic.
Mark, I have some questions which I think you should answer before anyone takes you seriously on this matter:
1. How old are you? 2. Where do you live? 3. Where were you brought up? 4. How many languages do you claim to speak? 5. How did you learn those languages?
I'm not sure all of those questions are relevant. Most of them are publicly-accessible information anyhow. I will answer those that aren't.
- How old are you?
- Where do you live?
- Where were you brought up?
- How many languages do you claim to speak?
I don't "claim to speak" any languages. I know a number of languages to widely varying degrees -- for example, I can say a few things in Okinawan, I can understand Spanish to a degree, and I can make myself understood in Japanese. Whether I "speak" a language or not depends on what you mean -- what level of fluency?
- How did you learn those languages?
How does anyone learn any language? By hearing it/reading it, and speaking it/writing it.
Mark
If the only difference is that it's written in Cyrillic then you can use some kind of program for that.
Serv
2006/3/7, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
I'm not sure all of those questions are relevant. Most of them are publicly-accessible information anyhow. I will answer those that aren't.
- How old are you?
- Where do you live?
- Where were you brought up?
- How many languages do you claim to speak?
I don't "claim to speak" any languages. I know a number of languages to widely varying degrees -- for example, I can say a few things in Okinawan, I can understand Spanish to a degree, and I can make myself understood in Japanese. Whether I "speak" a language or not depends on what you mean -- what level of fluency?
- How did you learn those languages?
How does anyone learn any language? By hearing it/reading it, and speaking it/writing it.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Of course. But what do you think the chances are that Romanians will allow it on "their" Wikipedia?
Many Romanians (and many Moldovans as well) regard Cyrillic as a symbol of communism or Russian imperialism, and if an automatic converter was added to the Romanian Wikipedia, I think it would get negative attention in romania, and some WP'ans might actually leave over it.
Mark
On 07/03/06, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com wrote:
If the only difference is that it's written in Cyrillic then you can use some kind of program for that.
Serv
2006/3/7, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
I'm not sure all of those questions are relevant. Most of them are publicly-accessible information anyhow. I will answer those that aren't.
- How old are you?
- Where do you live?
- Where were you brought up?
- How many languages do you claim to speak?
I don't "claim to speak" any languages. I know a number of languages to widely varying degrees -- for example, I can say a few things in Okinawan, I can understand Spanish to a degree, and I can make myself understood in Japanese. Whether I "speak" a language or not depends on what you mean -- what level of fluency?
- How did you learn those languages?
How does anyone learn any language? By hearing it/reading it, and speaking it/writing it.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Wikipedia editions refer to languages, not countries, and you know that. If for example Scandinavia whould have been a united country for half a century, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish would most probably have been considered variants of one language. Language is politics.
/Andreas
On 3/7/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Of course. But what do you think the chances are that Romanians will allow it on "their" Wikipedia?
Many Romanians (and many Moldovans as well) regard Cyrillic as a symbol of communism or Russian imperialism, and if an automatic converter was added to the Romanian Wikipedia, I think it would get negative attention in romania, and some WP'ans might actually leave over it.
Mark
On 07/03/06, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com wrote:
If the only difference is that it's written in Cyrillic then you can use some kind of program for that.
Serv
2006/3/7, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
I'm not sure all of those questions are relevant. Most of them are publicly-accessible information anyhow. I will answer those that aren't.
- How old are you?
- Where do you live?
- Where were you brought up?
- How many languages do you claim to speak?
I don't "claim to speak" any languages. I know a number of languages to widely varying degrees -- for example, I can say a few things in Okinawan, I can understand Spanish to a degree, and I can make myself understood in Japanese. Whether I "speak" a language or not depends on what you mean -- what level of fluency?
- How did you learn those languages?
How does anyone learn any language? By hearing it/reading it, and speaking it/writing it.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Yes, I do know that.
But there are also practical considerations.
Ideally, Moldovan-Cyrillic should be hosted at the same Wikipedia as the Romanian Wikipedia, with content conversion.
But will the existing Romanian Wikipedia community accept it? Probably not. What would Romanians (non-editors) think of it? They would probably be less forgiving than the Wikipedians.
If somebody wants to enforce the idea, I fully support it, as long as the converter meets appropriate standards (Cyrillic-Latin is not 1-to-1 for Moldovan, unlike with Serbian, so it will take a fair deal more listing of rules), and some way is found for the Wikipedia to be referred to either neutrally (not as Romanian or as Moldovan), or according to a user's preferences (so if a user selects it to be called the "Moldovan Wikipedia", the front page will welcome them to such). The last point isn't as important though -- my main concern is *accurate conversion*.
If you want to totally ignore any concerns of community acceptance and possible backlash as the result of such an implementation, that's fine with me.
Ultimately, what matters to me is that the same goal is reached, regardless of the method: Free encyclopaedia articles available for reading in Moldavian Cyrillic.
It matters a little bit what it's called, but what matters the most is that it's available, and relatively easy to access.
Mark
On 07/03/06, Andreas Vilén andreas.vilen@gmail.com wrote:
Wikipedia editions refer to languages, not countries, and you know that. If for example Scandinavia whould have been a united country for half a century, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish would most probably have been considered variants of one language. Language is politics.
/Andreas
On 3/7/06, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
Of course. But what do you think the chances are that Romanians will allow it on "their" Wikipedia?
Many Romanians (and many Moldovans as well) regard Cyrillic as a symbol of communism or Russian imperialism, and if an automatic converter was added to the Romanian Wikipedia, I think it would get negative attention in romania, and some WP'ans might actually leave over it.
Mark
On 07/03/06, Servien Ilaino servien@gmail.com wrote:
If the only difference is that it's written in Cyrillic then you can use some kind of program for that.
Serv
2006/3/7, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
I'm not sure all of those questions are relevant. Most of them are publicly-accessible information anyhow. I will answer those that aren't.
- How old are you?
- Where do you live?
- Where were you brought up?
- How many languages do you claim to speak?
I don't "claim to speak" any languages. I know a number of languages to widely varying degrees -- for example, I can say a few things in Okinawan, I can understand Spanish to a degree, and I can make myself understood in Japanese. Whether I "speak" a language or not depends on what you mean -- what level of fluency?
- How did you learn those languages?
How does anyone learn any language? By hearing it/reading it, and speaking it/writing it.
Mark _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
Hi there...
Although not Moldovian or Romanian, I would like to bring some "outsiders" insight to this discusion that seems (to me) more of a political issue.
I recall the problem with the, then known, Serbo-Croat. It was very similar writen in Latin and Cyrilic scripts. Today, by a strong degree of political pressure, the language is refered as Croat in Croatia and Serb in Serbia. I understand that Serb and Croat have some distinct diffrences but are largely the some language writen in different scripts.
If this situation is similar to the ro and mo issue, then the mere fact that Moldovian is the recognized and oficial language of a soveran state should give it the right to existe as a seperated wiki.
But I not in for a dispute (I'm portuguese)
On 07/03/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) alphasigmax@gmail.com wrote:
Mark Williamson wrote:
It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it: 1. Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the Moldovan dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact alone should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :)
Somehow I doubt you are able to read and write "correctly" in Cyrillic.
Mark, I have some questions which I think you should answer before anyone takes you seriously on this matter:
- How old are you?
- Where do you live?
- Where were you brought up?
- How many languages do you claim to speak?
- How did you learn those languages?
-- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP
Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- Paulo Valdivieso
Now it seems Dpotop is engaging in personal attacks:
"I suggest Moldovan users go there, because Node_ue is again spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt), which will make admins not to accept the deletion, even though he is alone. His family must have very strong anti-romanian feelings."
My family? Anti-Romanian feelings? Just because I support the existance of Cyrillic content, means I hate all Romanians? Sorry, but some of the conclusions people have drawn about me throught this debate are crazy.
I've been accused of being a KGB agent, a Stalinist, a Smirnovist agent, a Russian spy. Most of the accusations were by... Romanians! Do I hate Romanians? No.
There are a few people online I don't like, and some of them happen to be Romanians. On the other hand, there are many Romanians who I do like. My feelings re:Cyrillic, Moldova, and Moldovan are totally irrelevant.
Mark
On 07/03/06, Jacky PB dpotop1@yahoo.com wrote:
It seems that I need to justify my participation in this discussion. I have two arguments for it:
- Fluency in Moldovan. By any linguistic standards I speak the Moldovan
dialect of Romanian (with the accent). And I do it correctly. This fact alone should allow me to participate in the vote and discussions. I can even read and write using cyrillic script. Correctly. :) 2. I have relatives in the Republic of Moldova, and I know what they have no linguistic identity problems. Just take a look in the list of Moldovan editors: regardless of official politics (aimed at preserving good relations with Russia), not one is for a moldovan wikipedia. 3. My participation into this discussion was subject to one strong rule: I have never entered in conflict with a Moldovan editor, for I believe they have the moral authority to do what they want with mo.wiki. What I have done was in line with their requirements.
Yours, [[:en:Dpotop]]
Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
-- "Take away their language, destroy their souls." -- Joseph Stalin
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