I recently suggested a new design for the www.wikipedia.org portal, which has since been developed by AlanBarrett and several others more talented than I. After some very positive feedback, another user has now put the design up for a vote. I would like to get full input from users of all languages and browsers as this should definitely not be a decision made by en: users alone.
* Current portal: http://www.wikipedia.org/ Please note that the current portal has been recently updated to add the Dutch Wikipedia (which just reached 50,000), but that the page is protected so that contributors have not yet been able to work out an ideal solution to the layout of seven 50+ languages -- if the current one is kept a better solution will obviously be found.
* Proposed portal: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_portal/Catherine Note that after the poll went up, it was discovered that this design does not currently work in the Konqueror 3.1 browser. Work is ongoing to find the CSS bugs responsible, and any possible workarounds -- if you have experience in this area, please comment on the talk page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Www.wikipedia.org_portal/Catherine).
* The vote: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Www.wikipedia.org_portal#Poll_on_Catheri... Voting set to end February 11.
Thank you for your time! Catherine [[en:User:CatherineMunro]]
+----------------------+ artslave@usa.net
Catherine Munro (artslave@usa.net) [050129 22:55]:
I recently suggested a new design for the www.wikipedia.org portal, which has since been developed by AlanBarrett and several others more talented than I. After some very positive feedback, another user has now put the design up for a vote. I would like to get full input from users of all languages and browsers as this should definitely not be a decision made by en: users alone.
Has the new design been tested to degrade properly in ancient browsers? I know they're a vanishingly small proportion of popular browser usage surveys, but those are overwhelmingly US-centric. Picture Wikipedia on old computers, which would run old browsers. It needs to work for the poor as well.
- d.
David Gerard wrote:
Catherine Munro (artslave@usa.net) [050129 22:55]:
I recently suggested a new design for the www.wikipedia.org portal, which has since been developed by AlanBarrett and several others more talented than I. After some very positive feedback, another user has now put the design up for a vote. I would like to get full input from users of all languages and browsers as this should definitely not be a decision made by en: users alone.
Has the new design been tested to degrade properly in ancient browsers? I know they're a vanishingly small proportion of popular browser usage surveys, but those are overwhelmingly US-centric. Picture Wikipedia on old computers, which would run old browsers. It needs to work for the poor as well.
- d.
It works in lynx (a text-only browser), but the languages are not ordered according to article number. Not a big deal, really.
John Lee ([[en:User:Johnleemk]])
On Saturday 29 January 2005 13:55, Catherine Munro wrote:
- Proposed
Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK nsk2@wikinerds.org wrote:
Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.
Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror bug would be preferable.
-Matt (User:Morven)
"a blanket ban on css2"? This is a single portal page we're talking bout here, not all Wikimedia projects.
Mark
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:32:46 -0800, Matt Brown morven@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK nsk2@wikinerds.org wrote:
Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.
Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror bug would be preferable.
-Matt (User:Morven) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Mark Williamson wrote:
"a blanket ban on css2"? This is a single portal page we're talking bout here, not all Wikimedia projects.
Mark
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:32:46 -0800, Matt Brown morven@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK nsk2@wikinerds.org wrote:
Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/
Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me.
Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror bug would be preferable.
-Matt (User:Morven) _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
Well, if CSS2 doesn't work with Konqueror as NSK implied, surely that would mean we have to avoid CSS2 usage in *all* pages? Or are we going to have a nice portal and completely unreadable encyclopedia?
John Lee ([[en:User:Johnleemk]])
On Sunday 30 January 2005 15:26, John Lee wrote:
Well, if CSS2 doesn't work with Konqueror as NSK implied, surely that would mean we have to avoid CSS2 usage in *all* pages? Or are we going to have a nice portal and completely unreadable encyclopedia?
Konqi can understand CSS1, CSS2 and CSS3; but it's CSS2 and CSS3 implementations are not perfect. You can use only the CSS2 elements that are compatible with all engines, ie/gecko/khtml/opera.
On Sunday 30 January 2005 07:32, Matt Brown wrote:
fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
Discrimination against a browser because of its userbase is not a good thing. Never say "I don't support you because you are a minority". You could say that you can't support Konqueror becauce of the associated dev/admin work (which is exactly the reason why I don't officially support IE on my site http://www.wikinerds.org , only Mozilla and Konqueror are supported).
NSK wrote:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 07:32, Matt Brown wrote:
fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
Discrimination against a browser because of its userbase is not a good thing. Never say "I don't support you because you are a minority". You could say that you can't support Konqueror becauce of the associated dev/admin work (which is exactly the reason why I don't officially support IE on my site http://www.wikinerds.org , only Mozilla and Konqueror are supported).
Discrimination is not a good thing. But letting software loose on the world which is substandard is also not a good thing. There is little choise but to bend over backwards and support Microsoft's broken implementations of standards. With open source, you can scratch your own itch. So work on the Konqueror implementation of CSS is called for, alternatively use something that just works.
Thanks, GerardM
On Sunday 30 January 2005 15:29, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
With open source, you can scratch your own itch. So work on the Konqueror implementation of CSS is called for, alternatively use something that just works.
The bugs seems to be fixed since some time. A recent version of konqueror works fine for me. Probably the bug is related to KDE 3.1 and was fixed in the next major release. Most distributions have been updated since then.
best regards, Marco
On Sunday 30 January 2005 17:33, Marco Krohn wrote:
the next major release. Most distributions have been updated since then.
On my website http://www.wikinerds.org I get many hits from old Konqueror versions, even beta and RC releases. It seems that many people haven't updated their systems yet.
NSK (nsk2@wikinerds.org) [050131 01:21]:
On Sunday 30 January 2005 07:32, Matt Brown wrote:
fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because
Discrimination against a browser because of its userbase is not a good thing. Never say "I don't support you because you are a minority". You could say that you can't support Konqueror becauce of the associated dev/admin work (which is exactly the reason why I don't officially support IE on my site http://www.wikinerds.org , only Mozilla and Konqueror are supported).
*Current* Konqueror 3.x works fine, and anyone running it should be capable of upgrading. OTOH, graceful degradation in ungraceful browsers (and disgraceful ones) is essential.
- d.
On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:04 AM, David Gerard wrote:
*Current* Konqueror 3.x works fine, and anyone running it should be capable of upgrading. OTOH, graceful degradation in ungraceful browsers (and disgraceful ones) is essential.
- d.
Or as we called it at a very large software company I used to work for "ass backwards compatibility".
Stirling Newberry (stirling.newberry@xigenics.net) [050131 02:53]:
On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:04 AM, David Gerard wrote:
*Current* Konqueror 3.x works fine, and anyone running it should be capable of upgrading. OTOH, graceful degradation in ungraceful browsers (and disgraceful ones) is essential.
Or as we called it at a very large software company I used to work for "ass backwards compatibility".
*applause*
- d.
Matt Brown (morven@gmail.com) [050130 16:32]:
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:26:04 +0200, NSK nsk2@wikinerds.org wrote:
Unfortunately as it is I cannot use it properly, it is not compatible with Konqie. See http://www.konqueror.org/css/ Please avoid using CSS2 and limit yourself on CSS1.
Given that that document seems to state that much CSS2 works perfectly fine with Konqueror, and that Konqueror users are a seriously minor percentage of the world's users, a blanket ban on CSS2 simply because Konqueror has some issues seems a bit over-the-top to me. Of course, a work-around that doesn't tickle that particular Konqueror bug would be preferable.
KHTML before the Safari (Dave Hyatt) changes were folded in was really not very good with CSS and so forth. Of course, it wasn't nearly as bad as IE.
Graceful degradation in old and crappy browsers is absolutely essential. Preferably without too much br*ws*r sn*ff*ng.
(Have a look at http://mozilla.org/start/1.0/ and detect-problems.js - that was designed to let things work beautifully in Gecko, degrade tolerably in Opera and Konq 2.x/3.0 and go to far too much effort to work around the stupidity of IE. Netscape 4.x, we just let break ...)
- d.
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