Tomos wrote:
Similar things, but with different conditions, would apply for admins of other language-wikis. So, sometimes, even if the content is perfectly legal to host in a U.S. server, it would have to be deleted by an admin in another country.
Uh, no. The /only/ thing that counts is the legality of having the material on a server in the US. What is legal for the user to submit to Wikipedia is entirely up to the individual user, his or her nation and the amount of risk the user is willing to take.
The /only/ laws that matter here are the ones of California and the US. So if the material violates California and US law, /then/, and only then, can it be deleted on legal grounds. Of course if the user that submitted the material suddenly realizes that they broke the law of their own nation, then an Admin should delete the material soon after the user who submitted it asked the Admin.
Regarding copyrights, Japanese laws provide different protections for the copyright holders and exemptions for users (like that of fair use in the U.S.). So, again, what is legal in U.S. context may or may not be legal in Japanese context.
No! This is /exactly/ the thing that has to be avoided. If an Admin insists on deleting otherwise acceptable material (meaning it is both encyclopedic and legal under US law) because it would be illegal to have that material on a server in the nation of the Admin, then we should seriously reconsider the Admin's sysop status.
Like I said before we should /not/ have the laws of every nation have veto power over what we have on our server. Just pause for a moment to consider what Wikipedia would be like if we started down that road.
Blandopedia - that's what we would be. We would be even more of a joke than most public school textbooks in the United States (which are de facto censored by state and local school boards who only approve textbooks that don't offend a long list of lobbyists both on the right and left).
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
Tomos wrote:
Similar things, but with different conditions, would apply for admins of other language-wikis. So, sometimes, even if the content is perfectly legal to host in a U.S. server, it would have to be deleted by an admin in another country.
Uh, no. The /only/ thing that counts is the legality of having the material on a server in the US. What is legal for the user to submit to Wikipedia is entirely up to the individual user, his or her nation and the amount of risk the user is willing to take.
The /only/ laws that matter here are the ones of California and the US. So if the material violates California and US law, /then/, and only then, can it be deleted on legal grounds.
If I understood Tomos correctly, his point was this: a user posts material to Wikipedia in violation of his country's laws, but not in violation of US/CA laws. Somebody from that country notices the violation, complains to an admin from that country and demands the removal of the material. If the admin doesn't comply, they could conceivably become liable under the laws of their own country.
Axel
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Axel Boldt wrote:
--- Daniel Mayer maveric149@yahoo.com wrote:
Tomos wrote:
Similar things, but with different conditions, would apply for admins of other language-wikis. So, sometimes, even if the content is perfectly legal to host in a U.S. server, it would have to be deleted by an admin in another country.
Uh, no. The /only/ thing that counts is the legality of having the material on a server in the US. What is legal for the user to submit to Wikipedia is entirely up to the individual user, his or her nation and the amount of risk the user is willing to take.
The /only/ laws that matter here are the ones of California and the US. So if the material violates California and US law, /then/, and only then, can it be deleted on legal grounds.
If I understood Tomos correctly, his point was this: a user posts material to Wikipedia in violation of his country's laws, but not in violation of US/CA laws. Somebody from that country notices the violation, complains to an admin from that country and demands the removal of the material. If the admin doesn't comply, they could conceivably become liable under the laws of their own country.
This is the way I understood Tomos's point, and I don't think Mav misunderstood it either. I agree with Mav's analysis, and the only thing that would change that would be to have the server in an other jurisdiction.
GNU-FL issues and our principle that the user does not own the content also play a role. The contributor's ownership ends when he presses "save". At that point the legal jurisdiction is transferred from the user's country to the server's country, so where is the admin's liability.
Suppose too that the admin does comply with the demand (and there is no question about liability in the server country). I, as resident of a third country or even of the server country, can revert the deletion. What liability would then exist in the country of the original contributor and administrator?
Ec
--- Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
The contributor's ownership ends when he presses "save". At that point the legal jurisdiction is transferred from the user's country to the server's country, so where is the admin's liability.
To use an example that is sure to make everybody's blood boil: suppose you are an admin on an open web site that's located in a country where child porn is legal. Someone posts child porn there. Your country's police asks you to remove it. You refuse, arguing that your country's jurisdiction doesn't apply to the server. I don't really want to be in your shoes.
Axel
__________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com
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