Erik decried the creation of an elite and the resultant imbalance of power.
I agree to some extent, and I do worry about the results he predicts. But as I wrote last week, we already have an elite, and there already is an imbalance of power.
Jimbo has supreme power.
The developers have all the rights of sysops, plus the "can" revoke anyone's sysop status, ban a signed-in user and permanently erase any version of any article. (This doesn't mean they're "authorized" to, just that the power is in their hands.)
The sysops can protect or "delete" a page and ban any IP, even one used by a signed-in contributor, as was done temporarily to Lir. Sysops can edit a protected page.
Ordinary signed-in users have immunity from banning, although they might have to jump through hoops if their IP is blocked. They can't delete pages, edit protected pages or block IPs. They get a user page.
The non-signed-in can edit any page except the few protected pages, and they don't get a user page. They can be blocked by any sysop.
Can anyone view this as other than a 5-level hierarchy, with each level having more power than the levels below? Are not the higher levels an elite? Is this not an "imbalance of power"?
The question is not how to avoid creating an imbalance of power, but what to do with the current imbalance. If everyone is satisfied with the 5 levels we currently have (as is Cunctator, apparently), then we need do nothing. That is what Jimbo will most likely do: don't fix it, 'cause it ain't broken.
But Larry and others are saying: * it's broken, so fix it or I'll leave, or * it's broken, and you didn't fix it, so I'm leaving
I'm saying: * it's broken, so let's all put our heads together and find a way to fix it before it falls apart completely
Ed Poor
On 11/11/02 11:24 AM, "Poor, Edmund W" Edmund.W.Poor@abc.com wrote:
Can anyone view this as other than a 5-level hierarchy, with each level having more power than the levels below? Are not the higher levels an elite? Is this not an "imbalance of power"?
The question is not how to avoid creating an imbalance of power, but what to do with the current imbalance. If everyone is satisfied with the 5 levels we currently have (as is Cunctator, apparently), then we need do nothing. That is what Jimbo will most likely do: don't fix it, 'cause it ain't broken.
Huh? Why would I be satisfied? There's always some improvement to be made.
A "hierarchy" describes levels of authority, rather than functionality.
There are those who, shown a doctor, a plumber, and a fry cook, would say there's an obvious hierarchy there. But that's an unhealthy way to deal with people.
I've been saying that Mr. Poor could frame the issue in a better manner, not that there isn't an issue.
Mr. Poor has properly distinguished the functional categories. But to draw conclusions from those categories about how to manage Wikipedians is probably not the best thing. For example, a week ago I was in the same category as Mr. Poor and Maveric. I don't think we're equivalent Wikipedians. Now I'm in the same category as LDC and Brion Vibber. I don't think that makes us equivalent Wikipedians.
Ed Poor wrote:
Jimbo has supreme power.
The developers have all the rights of sysops, plus the "can" revoke anyone's sysop status, ban a signed-in user and permanently erase any version of any article. (This doesn't mean they're "authorized" to, just that the power is in their hands.)
The sysops can protect or "delete" a page and ban any IP, even one used by a signed-in contributor, as was done temporarily to Lir. Sysops can edit a protected page.
Ordinary signed-in users have immunity from banning, although they might have to jump through hoops if their IP is blocked. They can't delete pages, edit protected pages or block IPs. They get a user page.
The non-signed-in can edit any page except the few protected pages, and they don't get a user page. They can be blocked by any sysop.
I disagree with your assessment of the current situation only in that I believe that the bottom 2 levels are really the same. You're talking about power here, what people can do if they so choose. (For instance, you list the developers' *power* to permanently delete pages, because they can, even though they don't have the *authority* to do so.) Well, an anonymous user can sign in, quite easily. There's really no difference; even I make anonymous edits occasionally. But this doesn't mean that I'm shifting levels back and forth, because at any time that I want to use my adminstrator powers, I can sign in and do so.
This is what Jimbo will most likely do:
- don't fix it, 'cause it ain't broken.
Larry and others are saying:
- it's broken, so fix it or I'll leave, or
- it's broken, and you didn't fix it, so I'm leaving
I'm saying:
- it's broken, so let's all put our heads together and find a way to fix it
before it falls apart completely
I say: * it's not broken, except in the sense that it's a hierarchy at all, but it can still be improved; I'm no conservative.
Whatever happened to mav's suggestion of automatic old hand status? That makes the difference between the bottom two levels smaller (where "bottom two" is defined after I merge Ed's old bottom two).
And since the only reason that administrators can't ban logged in users is that we have no way to figure out what their IP numbers are, let's open that up to all administrators. After all, developers don't have more power than other administrators because we decided that they should have more authority, and then gave them the power to back that up; rather, they have more power because they have direct access to the database. If that's power that needs to be used (other than for coding, of course), then the authority should devlove to all administrators, and we should find a way to give us the power to back that authority up.
This still leaves the problem that banning can be cast too wide -- this *is* broken, but it's a technical problem of getting the right peron -- and the problem of when we should ban other than for vandalism -- that's not broken, since we discuss it on the list, but it can be improved, primarily by coming up with clear policies.
-- Toby
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