--- Lee Daniel Crocker lee@piclab.com wrote:
I don't speak much French, so I am unqualified to judge the merits of the argument going on at the French wiki now. But let me offer an opinion that may help guide those who do understand:
In the American legal system (and probably others), you can win or lose a case on its merits, but you can also lose by not following the rules of the system. This is called "procedural default", and is necessary to keep the system working: if a party refuses to show up for court, or complains to the wrong court, or doesn't respond properly to the court's questions, etc., then the court will not waste its time digging further into the issues of the case--it will simply declare that the uncooperative party loses. If someone wants a dispute resolved, it falls upon him to ensure that he treats the resolution system seriously and follows the process, otherwise there's no point in having a system at all. In extreme cases, if a litigant actively interferes with or subverts the process itself, casuing the court to waste its time and money, the party can even be sanctioned or charged with contempt of court.
When Wikipedia admins are called upon to resolve disputes, they should have the same powers. If it's something like a dispute over naming or content, a user who ignores legitimate questions posed to him, argues in the wrong place, and so on, should not be surprized when a sysop rules that his opponent's argument wins simply because his opponent behaved in a more civilized, productive manner. Likewise, there are some offenses that are so egregious as to merit sanctions: editing other people's quotes to misrepresent their opinions (but not just spelling mistakes and such), deliberate deception or dishonesty of other kinds, like lying about what one has said previously, or about what someone else has said.
I don't put mere hot-headedness into any of those categories: people get excited and say nasty things, and I don't have a problem with that as long as they keep the system working. But when they actively work to defeat the system, they need to lose, or the system stops working.
So, those admins who want to take some responsibility for the foreign wikis, do it. Don't be afraid to tell an uncooperative user that he is losing precisely because he refuses to cooperate. Block users, temporarily or permanently if necessary, if they actively work to subvert the system. If you need more technical assistance to exercise those powers, ask for it. Take control. Do what's necessary. We'll probably support you unless a dozen reasonable-sounding users give us good reasons not to.
I thank you for these very wise comments Lee.
Since I was apparently not clear yesterday, I would like to explain exactly the reason for my ire.
I have a problem with the very liberal use of swear words and argotic insults toward other editors in case of disagreement. Insults which are permanently inscribed in the discussion pages, visible in history and recent changes. I think that is very detrimental with the image of a serious and reliable encyclopedia. When I express my concern, Aoineko answers not using swear words and insults would be hypocrisy, so better speak plain. In spite of numerous comments I made about this, he goes on using these words with no consideration with my concern over these. I believe similar concerns were adressed on the english wiki with the change of TMC name. This is of course an issue of the french. For this reason, I started yesterday serious discussion meta page to try to find a consensus. Which resulted in vandalism toward me and my identity. Issue for which I asked help from the developpers who have access to the database.
I see none of my request have been answered, but that you proposed some french take care of the matter themselves. However, I know of no french I would trust enough to have direct access to the database. However I trust current developpers, in particular because they are out of the process (do you see what I mean ?). So there is a problem here.
To go back to the vandalism issue, I think it is likely to be a general concern, as it can occur on any wikipedia (in particular since user tables are separated). Which is also the reason why I raised to the point on the main list.
Let me state first that in case anybody, under any wikipedia, under any of the following user names
Anth�re Anth�re Anth�re Anth�re Antherement
doing any vandalism, porn image upload, use of swear words, insults to contributors, copyright infringment...
are not me Anthere You may report any bad action to me, and consider by default Aoineko is the author of it.
I would like also to add that in french Anthere is written Anth�re. Which is why I often sign Anth�re. However, my account is Anthere because my browser does not handle unicode, and I wanted my user name to be the same on any Wikipedia. For exemple, I can't have an accentuated letter account on metapedia or in wiktionary.
However, I often sign Anth�re since I consider this is the proper spelling of my name.
Now, there are 4 names spelled very similarly to mine, one of which I consider my real name, plus one clearly inspired. All these user names are signing using the same nickname than mine (Anthere without accent).
In short, the contributions made under these name are quite likely to appear to be mine (because of the very short similarity), and the comments made in talk page will be confused with mine as well.
The name Anth�re (with nick Anthere) made up by Aoineko wrote insults toward Aoineko himself (something like "Aoineko is a fucking asshole").
While I can consider ok that others are using user names very similar to mine, I think this was deliberate attempt to make other believe I (Anthere) said this about Aoineko. Hence, that is not simple fun, that is direct attack and attempt to twist other people perceptions.
I think that is wrong.
I wonder if Fred would appreciate if Tannin was creating an account [[User:Fred Ba�der]], using the nick Fred Bauder is using, and writing under this name "Tannin is a fucking asshole".
<aside comment>This is just an example of current events, I am totally sure Tannin would not do this, it is just that Ba�der seems to me a plausible german name</aside comment>
Deliberate deception could be the word I am looking for. Perhaps. But apparently, it does not deserve any sanction. Not even an apology from the real author. Not even check up that the different identities were done by one or by several people (in case developpers would not want to give ip, saying how many ips would have been nice).
Consequently, I will consider Aoineko is the author of the whole mess.
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