You're right, 'skimming' the issue is hardly the appropriate way to deal
with it. You would have to take five minutes and READ concentratingly the
thread opener.
As mentioned in the inter-german correspondence since then, the discussion
is about the refusal of the german Wikipedia hierarchy to accept also
critical weblinks on their pages, not just neutral or acclaiming ones. This
is something normal in e g anglo-saxon countries. Cf down on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_B._MacDonald .
The replies from Germany were an insisting type of pretending to 'nix
verstehn' ('not understand'), although they did understand - no doubt. How
do YOU react when people try to treat you this way? Some sarcasm could be
among the choices at one's disposal, according to my logic.
Why you have chosen to react emotionally instead of rationally, I don't want
to speculate over at this time. However, wouldn't you be free to correct
this attitude at any given moment?
Would you believe it - another german 'fuzzy'
'I don't know anything about this case/whatever and I don't want to
engage in this matter however your logic sounds strange to me':
What kind of contribution is this intended to be? The case is described in
the thread opener. If you are unwilling to read it, why do you write in
then? Can your commentary under these circumstances be other than rant?
'As this is obviously a matter of the german Wikipedia, why shouldn't
people of dewp be allowed to state their point?'
You would be more than welcome to participate in a discussion that deserves
this name. If you, however, continue - and systematically so - to avoid the
real question, then you show that something is wrong with you: Either you
are unable to, or you prefer not to understand (for whatever reasons).
'And, if you say (I didn't look into this one either), that the normal
processes for such a matter in dewp did not work and now your post should be
a kind of appeal to international Wikipedia Community, why shouldn't
dewp-people be allowed to defend their point of view?'
If you only did so. You haven't even started to plead your case. Instead,
you continue insisting that there isn't one.
The issue again, and in a nutshell: Why is it not possible on german
Wikipedia pages describing people or institutions to insert something that
is usual on correspondent anglo-saxon Wikipedia pages: i e a section that
lists not only 'neutral' (?) and acclaiming websites, but also such that are
critical? I had given an example for that in the thread opener.
I have described everything very clearly and in all necessary details in
that first, slightly extended but almost complete contribution. You would
be very well advised to take five minutes of your precious time and read
this text, trying to follow the clear logic exposed there.
International readers: Read the contributions from germans *) in this
thread, and you'll understand why german society is 'kaputt', and why it
apparently cannot be repaired. The german legal system does its part to keep
things in their sad state, cf http://worldimprover.net/EN/en4.html , so the
'elite' of the political-juridical complex **) can continue their parasite
existence at the expense of the german public.
'dewp-user but quite neutral in this case':
What are you tryin to insinuate? You are active enough to be a member of
this list, so are probably more than just a 'user'. I would consider you
part of the german Wikipedia structure. As such, you cannot be neutral, as
experience has shown. Wikipedia has become a power instrument, and it is
treated like that, at least in Germany.
*) I was born there, and german is my mother tongue. Still, due to my
extended polyglot and worldwide CV (cf
http://worldimprover.net/EN/en8.html ) I ask myseld if I should consider
myself a member of that nation anymore - at least not a typical one.
**) Remeber the defunct Soviet Union's military-industrial complex, which
destroyed the country? Is something similar happening to Germany through its
equivalent?
'as user of de.wikipedia and one of the people with the Ströbele page on
my watchlist I can only second Toms opinion.'
Sure - it indicates that you suffer from the same typically german problems
as your forerunner. You definitely carefully avoid to deal in detail with
my argument chain. You can mobilise many more dummies over there to repeat
your faulty conclusions, but that doesn't mean they were right. Mass doesn't
replace class.
This is the experience I habe been making with the german Wikipedia. And
I've mentioned that already. Just read the original message. Who - other
than german - wants to blame me for looking for international
support in this matter? From my worldwide experience (cf
http://worldimprover.net/EN/en8.html ), I would consider US americans to be
in the best position. Not just because of their history, but also because
Wikipedia is a US venture.
Can anyone among you hear me?
And once again: I really think we can from now on do without any more
comments from Germany, as long as they don't develop. I thought this was
clear already after my last message, but Till Westermayer proves that I was
mistaken.
First months of year 2006. were very succesful for Wikimedia SCG, especially
in media promotions.
First, at the last day of past year, in GNUzilla (electronic magazine
dedicated to free software) is published an article about Wikimedia SCG and
Wikipedia in serbian language.
Then at January 8, daily newspaper "Glas javnosti" published article "Free
competition-Wikipedia", comparing Wikipedia and Britanica, and Serbian
Wikipedia was mentioned.
January the 11th:
-Milos Rancic talked about the Wikipedia and Wikimedia at the channel two of
the Radio of Belgrade
January the 17th:
- Article about Wikipedia in daily newspaper Politika
- Jovana Milicevic talked about at the Art television
- On the Serbian television B92 site, in culture chapter, was placed the
news about Wikipedia promotion with comments
- The same promotion was announced on the site of the Belgrade
January the 18th:
- Milos Rancic talked on the radio B92
January the 19th:
- Platform about Wikipedia took place in Youth center Dom omladine
- Jovana's interviews were broadcasted on the radio Sajam and Radio of
Belgrade
- News about the platform published at the national television web site
January the 20th:
- Goran Obradovic speaked in the morning programe on the National television
- Jovana Milicevic speaked in the morining programe on the television
Metropolis
- Goran Obradovic and Nikola Smolenski talked for weekly newspapers Vreme,
and that interview will be published at Thursday 26th January
Wikimedia SCG meetings are taking place every Sunday in Youth center Dom
omladine Belgrade.
Jovana Milicevic
Hi out there
I hope someone can hear me? Alright, let's give it a try.
My name is the one shown in the address. You can learn a little more about
me and my a slightly less than ordinary life at
http://worldimprover.net/EN/en8.html (short text, translated by a native
speaker), if you like.
After having read the text, you will have learned that I am a german
national. As such, and with my polyglot and international background, I am
very concerned about the situation in Germany, i e the situation of
'democracy' and the 'constitutional state'. For those interested, there is a
page dealing with that issue on my website:
http://worldimprover.net/EN/en4.html .
For those who prefer to skip it, let me put it short: There is ample
evidence that the two exist on paper only. Reality is totally different.
Proof? Just enter 'rechtsmissbrauch' (= abuse of law) into a search engine
and be bewildered by the huge number of responses. I was naive enough
earlier in my life to believe in this lie, and consequently my life has
been - maybe not destroyed, but totally changed from what I had expected it
to be. I have therefore decided to dedicate the rest of my life to fight
'german conditions'. And I'm getting better, it seems: There is lots of
irrefutable evidence for that I've been in the secret services' focus for
years.
Okay, now what has this got to do with Wikipedia. I found that comtempo
persons and organisations have discovered that Wikipedia is a fabulous
free-of-charge PR medium. I e, as long as the text there fits their needs.
And german Wikipedia entries (= those behind them) seem to have developped a
system that makes sure that just this happens. Let me give you two examples:
There is the self-proclaimed human-rights movement Humanistische Union,
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistische_Union .
I myself have made the experience that they - i e their number two manager
(a lawyer) - are not interested in human-rights cases, if german nationals
and ditto state agencies are involved. It appears that human rights are
there for foreign asylum seekers only. I've added a page to my website,
http://worldimprover.net/DE/de4_2.html ,
where the correspondence in my case with that HU personality is published.
A similar case is MP Hans-Christian Stroebele, cf
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Str%C3%B6bele .
His scam is to always 'play folksy', see the photo of Stroebele on his
'famous bike' on that same page. I presented him my case as well, and the
only reaction was that he rid me off, shyster-style. Also this
correspondence can be found on my website, at
http://worldimprover.net/DE/de4_3.html .
My detailed statistics show me that these pages are amongst the
best-visited of my website, and continue to be. People appear to be
interested in the truth about such people, not their pre-fabricated myths.
So my next thought was: If their Wikipedia entries are super-naturally good,
then some counter-balance couldn't hurt, to put things back in the right
scale. So I added a link to my pages 4.2 and 4.3, down on their Wikipedia
pages, under their link collections. They didn't manage to survive there
very long. Especially in the case of Stroebele, there seems to be an eager
monitor present who makes sure nothing negative gets known about his master.
When making further inquiries, I found that both this censor and his mentor
are in the same political party, the 'Greens'. The only difference is that
Stroebele is nearing the end of his career, for age reasons, while his
protege is a student, in his early twenties - some sponsoring of an elder
politician won't hurt, if you're eager to climb the political ladder, I
imagine?
By the way, I have found in the meantime that my thought - of adding a
counter-balance link - probably isn't so exotic: Just go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_B._MacDonald ,
and you will see that they have added a chapter 'criticisms of XY's work'.
I'd say, this is the same concept - isn't it?
Now, in case your next thought is to advise me to go through the national
mediation procedure established by Wikipedia, then my answer is: I've tried
that, and the outcome was almost predictable. Although I was dealing with
several people, they all said almost exactly the same - just as if they
previously had agreed upon this method. And I'm almost sure they have, for
this is the way the german society (mal-) functions. When someone has
reached a post, he allies with the others that have got one, and then they
start to make their private 'regulars table policies' (translation of german
term 'stammtischpolitik' - alluding at the habit of 'making politics' when
sitting together in the guesthouse drinking beer) at the expense of the
rest. This is probably the principal reason why Germany is more and more
becoming a corrupt banana republic - and a highly technicized one, thus an
Orwell-type nightmare for every critical mind.
Now what can we do in this situation? I have heard 'foreigners' say that the
majority of germans aren't quite grown-up. And I think I would agree with
them. If we now assume that we are dealing with this kind of people also in
the german Wikipedia section, wouldn't the only cure be a kind of
'occupational force' that revises their structures, schools them in how to
do their work properly and then monitors their day-to-day activies for a
while? Also, it might suggest itself to establish a complaint line, in case
these people later - when on their own again - suffer from a relapse into
old acting patterns. After all, even if you manage to change them, the
society remains as such. And that will continue to have its repercussions.
I think this should have given you the picture. If you think I ought to add
or clarify anything, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm really curious to
see what comes out of this.
Regards
Michael
Mehr info? Siehe
http://worldimprover.net/ und http://es-reicht.org/
*********************************************************************
Michael Laudahn
Postfach 6829
CH-8050 Zürich (nur sporadische zustellung - nicht für
kurztermin-sachen!)
tel: nicht öffentlich
fax: +41 (0)44 274 2845
epost: ml(a)worldimprover.net
*********************************************************************
In case there are anglo-saxon readers: Koll has done it again
It's just a mixture of polemics and pretzel logic - like I called it,
'german fuzzy logic'.
He has withdrawn the preposterous 'paranoia' allegation. That was real
quick. Simultaneously, he's trying to replace it with a lighter kind of
accusation, called 'querulantentum' (I leave it up to you if you find a
suitable translation for that in english - my suspicion is, this is just
another kind of german invention to try and muzzle uncomfortable messengers
by giving them a name a court can find useful to abuse. Weren't nazi courts
actively thriving on this notion ('querulantentum')? A smiley won't help
damping this new insult of his.
He remains inflexible in the real issue, though. His tactics are to try and
divert your attention from the fact that I gave all the pertinent
information in my english-language messages. In other words, there is no
need to read the german part of my website. Just trust that what I state is
true information, then go from there. Do I give any reason to believe that I
were not telling the truth?
It is the german type of 'governance logic' at de.wikipedia.org that this
case is about. And it should be easily understandable through my original
message already. Otherwise, let me know what else you'd like to know or have
explained.
In case Koll still hasn't comprehended it: I am not interested in the kind
of statements he has delivered so far. Is someone else? Then, at least I
would prefer not to hear from him again.
Hi all.
This is in reference to the Cebuano Wikipedia
(ceb.wp).
I would like to ask first of all, if it is possible to
change the namespace name "Wikipedia" into
"Wikipedya", as I noticed that some sites are doing
this. We have also been doing this "unofficially"; our
newcomer page, for example, is
[[:ceb:Wikipedya:Maayong pag-abot, higala!]] and not
[[:ceb:Wikipedia:Maayong pag-abot, higala!]]. But the
namespaces as known to the mediawiki software does not
reflect the namespaces as used by the community.
And if this possible, how can we contact a developer
to do this for us?
Thanks all.
--Bentong Isles
[[:ceb:User:Bentong Isles]]
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Before Jovana sends (in Monday) our weekly digest about events related
to Wikimedia SCG chapter, I want to say/ask a few things:
- I think that lists Foundation, Wikipedia, Wikinews and email to the
Board are good places for such informations. If someone thinks that
some list(s)/email(s) should be excluded/included, please, tell us
that.
- In the last 7-10 days we had a lot of contacts with media, one
rostrum (I think that our dictionaries made correct translation :)
this is some kind of lecturer with debate after that) as well as our
regular meetings at Sunday with a lot of new people who are interested
in developing Wikipedia (in general, Serbian, but others, too) and
software for conversion (improvement of Zhengzhu's Chinese and Serbian
version and possibility to implement it not only for Serbian version
of MediaWiki, but, also for some others with similar needs).
- Thanks to Dragan Ambrozic, our vice president and professional in
event making, we have a lot contacts with media. I am surprised with
the number of journalists who contacted our PR Jovana and me. In
Friday we had 26 new registered users. I looked relations between
registered users and users with more then 10 edits and when 26 users
register accounts it means that we would have 3 Wikipedians more; if
we continue with such progression, we would have 100 new users per
month, very soon (to compare: the best month before was August 2005
with 26 new users; also, approximation for December 2005 was that we
would have 203 users at all!).
- People outside of the project like our idea very much, many of them
are willing to help in different ways. (Finally, we have the article
about Jimbo ;) ) And I can say that I am very happy because of recent
development: people who are not my close friends are calling me by
phone and they are saying "I heard about Wikipedia in the news!".
- It also should be noted that Wikimedia SCG is the first free
knowledge organization in Serbia and Montenegro. There are no such
organization in Serbia. And in this moment we are covering the hole
space related to free knowledge. (There are some organization which
promote open content, BUT they are doing that only because it is the
new way for getting money from sponsors.)
This statemant, "adminship is no big deal", originates from enwiki.
Could someone please explain in what circumstances this saying was
worded? I see it used meaning "adminship is no big deal, so you
shouldn't be so careful who to elect for this task" as well as
"adminship is no big deal, so you shouldn't try and find ways to get
rid of admins who are obviously unsuitable for the job".
My guess is: this sentence originates from the truly virgin stage of
wikipedia, where some people wanted to avoid others starting fighting
for admin (or at the time, "sysop") status. Currently, I see no reason
for the remaining of this statements in various places in the
Wikipedia namespace in various wikipedias - none at all.
/Habj