Wikipedia-l January 2005

wikipedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org

113 participants
129 discussions

Looking for untranslated articles
by Patrick Hall 08 Jan '05

08 Jan '05

Hi, Is there any way to get a list of articles which have no corresponding article across languages? For instance, there is no English version of: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arapiraca To pick an exemplo aleatório. I'd like to get a big list of those and look for articles that might be interesting to translate. Regards, Patrick Hall

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Request for Amis Wiktionary
by Pochung Chen 08 Jan '05

08 Jan '05

Dear All, We would like to open a Wiktionary for the Amis language. Amis is an Austronesian language used by the Amis -- one of the Austronesian people in Taiwan. The Amis account for about one third of Taiwan's indigenous population (i.e. 130 thousand), however, many of the younger generation do not speak the language and till now there is still no exact ststistic report of the number of real speakers. There are two prevailing writing systems of this language: the Presbyterian Church system and the International Phonetic Symbol system, the later is used only within the academic circle. We would like to edit a Wiktionary which basically employs the Presbyterian Church system but also notes the IPS so that readers can also know the exact pronounciations. At this moment there are at least three people who are willing to commit to this project. They are Nakao Eki, Afah Lisin, and Tai-ni Tsou. The former two are native speakers and the later two as ethnographers are also familiar with the academic Amis writing system. Pektiong Tan (zh-min-nan:pektiong) will help those people to get familiar with the wikipedia system. We would prefer to set the default interface language to be Mandarin with traditional character used in Taiwan (zh-tw) since most of the potential user of this wiktionary can read Mandarin with traditional character. Proposed domain name: http://amis.wiktionary.org/ Language tag for Amis: ISO 639-2: N.A. ISO 639-3 (Draft): Ami SIL: ALV RFC-3066: i-ami Sincerely, Nakao Eki, Afah Lisin, Tai-ni Tsou, Pektiong Tan Some info about Taiwanese aborigine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_aborigine

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anonymizing that email
by Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales 07 Jan '05

07 Jan '05

Some of you may have noticed that I said I was going to anonymise the email but I screwed up and didn't. I wrote to apologize to the author, and she responded: "In regard to publishing the e-mail, I am not concerned about my name being included." Even so, I offer my public apologies as well for this error. --Jimbo -- "La nèfle est un fruit." - first words of 50,000th article on fr.wikipedia.org

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Re: bibliography
by Giuseppe DAngelo 07 Jan '05

07 Jan '05

For a babe in the woods, Caroline makes a lot of sense. A huge percentage of articles currently lack references, and we're worried about whether someone leaves out the middle name on an otherwise reasonable reference? The chances of ambiguities arising are one in a million. Referencing is the preferred practice, and whether it is done has less to do with the availability of a bells-and-whistles add-on, and more to do with the character of the scribe. This mother-of-all-bibliographies might have Adam Smith, but will it have Giuseppe Pitre or Santi Correnti or the Funk and Wagnalls Encyclopedia or the New Junior Encyclopedia (which is now extremely old) or the Hansard? Salutamu pippu d'angelo, canberra wikipedia-l-request(a)Wikimedia.org wrote: Send Wikipedia-l mailing list submissions to wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to wikipedia-l-request(a)Wikimedia.org You can reach the person managing the list at wikipedia-l-owner(a)Wikimedia.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Wikipedia-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: Re: Bibliography (Caroline Ewen) 2. Re: Choosing interface? (Mark Williamson) 3. Re: A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While (Stirling Newberry) 4. Re: A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While (Sean Barrett) 5. Re: Re: Bibliography (Stan Shebs) 6. RE: Re: Bibliography (Caroline Ewen) 7. Re: A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While (Stirling Newberry) 8. Re: A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While (Bryan Derksen) 9. A portal page for www.wikipedia.org (was Re: Why www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?) (Anthere) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 00:54:38 +0100 From: "Caroline Ewen" Subject: RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography To: Message-ID: <200501062354.AAA23339(a)germaine.webtechnologies.lu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all, Don't get me wrong but why would there be a need for a tool to create a bibliography ? It's all quite simple: Surname, NAME, Title in italic, Edited by..., City, Year. Or did I misunderstand the whole "technology for bibliographical records"-thing ? Cheers from LB Caroline aka Briséis. -----Message d'origine----- De : wikipedia-l-bounces(a)Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org] De la part de Joseph Reagle Envoyé : jeudi 6 janvier 2005 23:34 À : Karl Eichwalder Cc : wikipedia-l(a)wikipedia.org Objet : Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography On Thursday 06 January 2005 14:46, Karl Eichwalder wrote: > Make sure to use proper technology for bibliographical records; > http://www.indexdata.dk offers good tools under GPL or other free > licenses. For storage id-zebra (zebra) and for retrival over Z39.50 > the YAZ toolkit is available. A bibtex format would be nice too... -- Regards, http://www.mit.edu/~reagle/ Joseph Reagle E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:56:55 -0700 From: Mark Williamson Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Choosing interface? To: wikipedia-l(a)wikimedia.org Message-ID: <849f98ed050106155666fb1597(a)mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Of its own interface, yes, that would be a nightmare. The issue with LanguageXX.php is this: two ways to translate the interface exist (in practice). With one, translations are activated on that Wikipedia as soon as they are submitted (Mediawiki namespace). With the other, a developer has to be asked to activate it, adjustments are more difficult to make, and activation is entirely at the developer's leisure. Many more recent translations have been exclusively namespace because people didn't forsee the problems that might be caused by not using LanguageXX.php. It's fairly simple to export the MediaWiki namespace translations into a LanguageXX.php file, and a bot could probably be made for it, but even then it would probably be a while before anybody activated them. (I can't do that because my programming skills are limited to qbasic, html, and unl) Mark On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 17:55:08 +0000, Rowan Collins wrote: > On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:43:29 -0700, Mark Williamson wrote: > > Nope, you can choose an interface language now. > > > > Unfortunately for many Wikipedias, this uses the LanguageXX.php file > > and NOT whatever might be in the mediawiki namespace on that Wikipedia > > - thus you can't view the interface in Kannada, or Navajo, or etc... > > For obvious reasons, it would be a bit of a nightmare if every wiki > could include a seperate customised version of its interface in every > language; and the different wikipedias will customise things in ways > dependent on their *community*, not just the language. > > Presumably (I hope I'm not reopening a can of worms here) the > languages you mention can become available to whoever wants them as > soon as somebody creates an appropriate LanguageXX.php, so it's not so > much a problem of how the interface selection works, as the status of > those translations. > > -- > Rowan Collins BSc > [IMSoP] > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:03:23 -0500 From: Stirling Newberry Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org Message-ID: <8C213924-603F-11D9-93D0-000A95A26E0A(a)xigenics.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Jan 6, 2005, at 5:16 PM, NSK wrote: > On Thursday 06 January 2005 21:03, Stirling Newberry wrote: >> Most academics are poves, that is why they became academics in the >> first place. > > Anti-Intellectualism at its best. > Nonsense, anti-academicism yes, but to say that academia is intellectual is to defy its own admission that the set of professors and the set of dullards have a far from null intersection. You are engaging in appeal to authority, which has been a logical fallacy for quite a little while. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:15:59 -0800 From: Sean Barrett Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org Message-ID: <41DDD4BF.5080309(a)epoptic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed NSK stated for the record: > I once saw a professor visiting a Wikipedia article on maths found from a > Google search, but he abandoned it just after a few seconds. Another > professor has advised us never to cite material not hosted on .edu or .ac.uk > or other educational domains. > > If Wikipedia does not change its attitudes, it will eventually die from brain > drain: New, more expertise-friendly and intellectual wikis will emerge and > WP's knowledgeable users will just immigrate there. For someone so contemptuous of Wikipedia, you sure do like our mailing list a lot. -- Sean Barrett | What was the best thing before sliced bread? sean(a)epoptic.com | ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:19:12 -0800 From: Stan Shebs Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org Message-ID: <41DDD580.3070302(a)apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Caroline Ewen wrote: >Hi all, > >Don't get me wrong but why would there be a need for a tool to create a >bibliography ? It's all quite simple: Surname, NAME, Title in italic, Edited >by..., City, Year. > >Or did I misunderstand the whole "technology for bibliographical >records"-thing ? > Ah, an innocent wandering into the brambly briers of bibliography... :-) Think of different styles (some do first name first), different names for the same person (middle initial vs spelled-out), journal articles, book chapters in a multi-author book, translations, multiple editions with different content, annotated works, uppercase/lowercase, and so on. Even though only a minority of our articles have references now, there is a remarkable randomness among them. Wouldn't you rather be able to type in "[[Biblio:Wealth of Nations]]" and have it expand into a correctly-formatted reference to Adam Smith's book, mentioning original publication date, ISBN for a good recent reprint, and URL for an online text at the most reliable website? Even better, some dedicated bibtexers and others have built giant bibliographies online, and we would like to just reuse them instead of typing all in ourselves. Stan ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 01:35:43 +0100 From: "Caroline Ewen" Subject: RE: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography To: Message-ID: <200501070035.BAA00638(a)germaine.webtechnologies.lu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Two things: 1. "different styles": I did realise that this depends a LOT on the country. Of course there's a slight change when you have an article of a newspaper than when you're citing a book. And I do agree that it would be simple just typing "[[Biblio:Wealth of Nations]]". The thing with the different styles is, how to you get them all under one style ? I do study in France actually, and I noticed that some of the german Erasmus-students I met here looked at my bibliography once and where astonished by the way it was written. I told them that that's just the french style of writing it. They do have some minor differences when writing theirs. As for the multiple editions: in France, you tend to state the most recent edition (because revised, mistakes have been corrected etc). Do you want to "impose" one style for all ? :-) 2. "just reuse them instead of typing all in ourselves": I do object to that. I don't know about other Wikipedians but when I write articles, I usually have some of my books on my desk, I don't know all that stuff by heart (would be nice though :-) ) And I NEVER put any books in my own bibliography I haven't used. The reason is simple: by only adding the books I used, because I know what's IN the books. I could easily say "oh the english Wiki has some more books than we do, let's just add them too". Not saying that the books in the english wiki article aren't good, but how can I know ? I haven't read them, maybe never heard of them. You could say that maybe I WILL know them since they're stated there and out of curiosity, if I'm interested in the subject of the article, I will look into them, but I still dislike the fact to simply use what's there :-) Caroline, the innocent :-) -----Message d'origine----- De : wikipedia-l-bounces(a)Wikimedia.org [mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces@Wikimedia.org] De la part de Stan Shebs Envoyé : vendredi 7 janvier 2005 01:19 À : wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org Objet : Re: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Bibliography Caroline Ewen wrote: >Hi all, > >Don't get me wrong but why would there be a need for a tool to create a >bibliography ? It's all quite simple: Surname, NAME, Title in italic, >Edited by..., City, Year. > >Or did I misunderstand the whole "technology for bibliographical >records"-thing ? > Ah, an innocent wandering into the brambly briers of bibliography... :-) Think of different styles (some do first name first), different names for the same person (middle initial vs spelled-out), journal articles, book chapters in a multi-author book, translations, multiple editions with different content, annotated works, uppercase/lowercase, and so on. Even though only a minority of our articles have references now, there is a remarkable randomness among them. Wouldn't you rather be able to type in "[[Biblio:Wealth of Nations]]" and have it expand into a correctly-formatted reference to Adam Smith's book, mentioning original publication date, ISBN for a good recent reprint, and URL for an online text at the most reliable website? Even better, some dedicated bibtexers and others have built giant bibliographies online, and we would like to just reuse them instead of typing all in ourselves. Stan _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:40:55 -0500 From: Stirling Newberry Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Jan 6, 2005, at 7:15 PM, Sean Barrett wrote: > NSK stated for the record: > >> I once saw a professor visiting a Wikipedia article on maths found >> from a Google search, but he abandoned it just after a few seconds. Some sections of wikipedia are a horror, and the only way to fix that is to contribute. It was the state of the economics section which finally got me to contribute. Particularly the lack of a good explanation of the IS-LM model. >> Another professor has advised us never to cite material not hosted on >> .edu or .ac.uk or other educational domains. I think the New York Times has engaged in some poor reporting, but to catagorically deny citing them seems, extreme. >> If Wikipedia does not change its attitudes, it will eventually die >> from brain drain: New, more expertise-friendly and intellectual wikis >> will emerge and WP's knowledgeable users will just immigrate there. >> First you accuse me of anti-intellectualism for saying that academics are poves, and then you prove my point. Thank you I could not have done a better job. But to get back to seriousness: Wikipedia does need to get more friendly to a higher level of information integrity, and it does need to get to a higher level of citation, and it does need to recruit many more people from academia to contribute articles - more specifically, it needs more people who write in their area of profession to contribute. One need not be a professor to write a good explanation of a star scheme, but actually having implemented one a few times will generally be a huge help in writing about them. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:28:22 -0800 From: Bryan Derksen Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] A Solution to Larry Sanger's Criticisms - Project Has Been Around For A While To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050106192616.00ac5888@shawmail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:16 AM 1/7/2005 +0200, NSK wrote: >I once saw a professor visiting a Wikipedia article on maths found from a >Google search, but he abandoned it just after a few seconds. Another >professor has advised us never to cite material not hosted on .edu or .ac.uk >or other educational domains. > >If Wikipedia does not change its attitudes, it will eventually die from brain >drain: New, more expertise-friendly and intellectual wikis will emerge and >WP's knowledgeable users will just immigrate there. Alternately, you seem to be suggesting that Wikipedia needs to do is get an .edu or .ac.uk domain name. ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 22:10:19 -0800 (PST) From: Anthere Subject: [Wikipedia-l] A portal page for www.wikipedia.org (was Re: Why www.wikipedia.org => en.wikipedia.org ?) To: wikitech-l(a)wikimedia.org Cc: wikipedia-l(a)wikimedia.org Message-ID: <20050107061019.56004.qmail(a)web41802.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Walter Vermeir a Ã©crit: >> Hello, >> >> I want to know why the address http://www.wikipedia.org redirects >> automatically to http://en.wikipedia.org... Is Wikipedia an english >> project with translations, or is it a real international project? > > > I asked myself that same question many years ago. I think I posted the > first question about this on some wikipedia list at the end of 2001. > Always a lot of objections. It would break links, English is the lingo > franca of the internet. At the time of the change from wikipedia.com to > wikipedia.org used to a opportunity to do it but it has not be done. > > Wikipedia is a international project. But only the English may use the > front entrance. I was among those who objected more than 2 years ago. I believe most of the objections raised at that time do not make any more sense. A lot was written on the mailing list, and some discussion may be found here : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_to_do_with_www.wikipedia.org. I do not think there were be links broken now. We switch the adress more than 2 years ago, the encyclopedia is so much bigger now, and we had truely become international (which was not true 3 years ago at all). It is high time we finally get a portal page. There were other solutions mentionned 2 years and a half ago, but I think portal is the solution chosen for all our projects, so best to stick with it probably. However, it might be nice to try to do something good looking and not necessarily wiki (we do not need the left menu for example). I suggest that some people try to come up with some good designs and that we get done with this. For example, this might be a conceptual proposition (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_to_do_with_www.wikipedia.org-mav%27s_Pr…) but it could need a graphist to polish it. I hope someone come up with a good idea :-) Could someone set up a contest page, where we could add considerations to respect and where wikipedians could link their proposal ? Anthere __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Wikipedia-l mailing list Wikipedia-l(a)Wikimedia.org http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l End of Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 18, Issue 18 ******************************************* --------------------------------- Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica Scaricalo ora!

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Programming dates in the Lojban interface
by Pierre Abbat 07 Jan '05

07 Jan '05

Previously the Lojban Wikipedia was using date abbreviations like "7 knb 2005" both in recent changes and history lists and in the expansion of "~~~~". This is fine for recent changes and history lists, which are full of other abbreviations, but in "~~~~" expansion it should be written "de'i li 2005-01-07 ti'u li 03:54". Also, some people use "pavma'i ... pavrelma'i" and some use "kanbyma'i ... celma'i", but dates with the day in the middle are not used in Lojban. Can someone help me program this? phma -- Mes règles mensuelles ont lieu une fois par an. -Les Perles de la médecine

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Choosing interface?
by James R. Johnson 07 Jan '05

07 Jan '05

I read in a recent e-mail (I think about Catalan or some other new language) that you can choose the interface for your wiki. How so? What kind of customizations are available? James

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Re: special characters
by Giuseppe DAngelo 06 Jan '05

06 Jan '05

I hate to interrupt important matters of state with a trivial concern, but while I was in the Catalan wikipedia today I went to use the special characters in the copyright area of the edit page and only managed to invoke some gobbledygook. I ignored it at the time, but then found that it was doing the same thing in the Sicilian wikipedia. Has anyone else come across this? Has anyone got any tips? Have both the Catalan and the Sicilians gone awry somewhere along the way or is this universal? Appreciative of any helpful thoughts. Salutamu. pippudoz --------------------------------- Nuovo Yahoo! Messenger E' molto più divertente: Audibles, Avatar, Webcam, Giochi, Rubrica Scaricalo ora!

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On ang:
by jneden＠bellsouth.net 06 Jan '05

06 Jan '05

I have to say that the ang: looks like it will be a very useful tool to understanding Old English, as the ,,wísdómbóc'' ties Old English into topics well familiar to modern English speakers. I commend it for existing. Finally, something other than Beowulf. :-)

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Re: Old Norse
by Olve Utne 06 Jan '05

06 Jan '05

Hello Vegard, Mark, etc., An Old Norse project sounds fine with me -- either as a Wikipedia or as a Wiktionary. I am reasonably competent in Old Norse and can provide a bit of help along the way -- although I cannot promise to spend a lot of time on it, since there are so many other things I need to tend to also (including, first and foremost, the Nynorsk Wikipedia and the English one). Arguments against an Old Norse Wikipedia might be its proximity to Icelandic -- to which it is so similar that the difference between normalised Old Norse and Icelandic orthography can be summed up in a handful mostly one-to-one rules. Thus, Old Norse -r after consonant corresponds to Icelandic -ur; the Old Norse O with ogonek (a C-like shape under) corresponds to Icelandic ö; Old Norse long ø corresponds to Icelandic æ; Old Norse -k in personal pronouns corresponds to Icelandic -g; and the Old Norse grammatical ending -t corresponds to Icelandic -ð. Otherwise, the morphology and syntax are mostly the same (with some archaic forms in Old Norse being lost in Icelandic), but Icelandic has undergone a relatively dramatic expansion of its vocabulary in the recent century or so. Regarding the name, I suggest that the language be called norrnt (with oe digraph) or norrønt with acute accent over the ø (not possible to type in Eudora...). The name gamalnorska ("Old Norwegian") would not have been used as a self-designation in the time of Old Norse as a mother tongue. Also, the language was used both in Norway and Iceland, as well as as a mostly spoken language in Sweden and Denmark before the languages of these countries started to drift apart. As for writing system, orthography etc., there is clearly a potential for disagreements there. My take on the matter would be that using the latin alphabet rather than the (Runic) Futhork makes the most sense, and that some degree of normalisation of the spelling is needed. (Should one write bók, bok, or boc, for instance?) The wiki language code :non: sounds fine with me. -Olve At 22:54 03/01/2005 +0000, you wrote: >From: "Vegard Aukrust" <vegara(a)stud.ntnu.no> >I want to start a Wikipedia page in old norse (gamalnorska), and I suggest >the language code "gno". >From: Mark Williamson <node.ue(a)gmail.com> >I'm not sure the current environment is the best place for a request >regarding Old Norse. But anyhow, I have a question: will you use the runic >script, or the latin script? ___________________ Olve Utne http://utne.nvg.org

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Re: Harassing is not OK
by jneden＠bellsouth.net 06 Jan '05

06 Jan '05

All Wikipedians, > Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this peck-order-oriented list...) I have to agree with Olve. And that is largely why I have not felt like paying attention to wikipedia-l lately. Sorry I haven't been around to voice my opinions against this idiocy. I do not have clearly defined convictions as to the interactions of both parties here (mainly Mark and YOU, harassment squad), but I am certain that this peck-order rudeness is not what Wikipedia needs to be. In fact, I dare say that this stuff needs to end here and now. If I were completely new to Wikipedia and signed up for wikipedia-l, I'd unsubscribe in a heartbeat. Leave Mark W. alone and get on with your lives. Ooh, and I abbreviated here. Sorry. (Referencing a rude, old e-mail from a certain party which I felt no urge to respond.) Have a great day. Takk, Ovne. Du forstår Wikipedia-l vel, og jeg er glad i deg for det. Nå skal jeg snakke norsk! (GOD it's been too long. Almost two years since I used Norwegian seriously. At least I can tell you something in Norwegian that people will not undertand literally in English. High five for Nordmenn -- we seem to get along well!) Mark, you take care. Sorry I haven't been around. You have my support. ~ Jeremy Agidoda tsalag, kenv; hla yagiliya wigiquediya. (Funny how my identity is meddled with languages, isn't it?) ---------- Dear Yann, Gerard & al., I have noticed that some people find it amusing (or whatever it is) to harrass (!) Mark W. Please stop with it -- Wikipedia has bigger problems than some of you not agreeing with Mark W. Acceptance of escalated personal attacks is one of them -- and it is not exactly like Mark W. has been proven to have a monopoly on those... Respectfully, Olve Utne (who is starting to get a bit sick of this peck-order-oriented list...) At 12:17 04/01/2005 +0000, Yann Forget wrote: >Hi Mark, [...] Please stop spreading FUD. Requests are not well received >when they are sent by YOU, that the point. Gerard Meijssen wrote: >You are like an old record, stuck in the same phrases time and again. You >have annoyed and insulted many people and you are unappologetic about it.

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