Mark Williamson a �crit:
>> Do not claim something is true when you do not cite
evidence
>> Do not claim something is true over just one sample
person experience
>> Do not draw conclusion of censorship when
information is missing to draw
>> such a conclusion.
>Quote: "Adding new languages is certainly a strain on
>developers. It
>certainly will be that this project will grow slowly
>(it would be
>wiser perhaps to work mostly on wiktionary rather than
>wikipedia to
>start with), but I do not think we should on purpose
>limit the
>existence of small projects on the motive there will
>be few editors to
>work on." (Anthere)
>You claim something is true (strain on developers)
>without citing
>evidence, you claim it is true from your own
>experience presumably,
>and you claim it as a fact when in fact the next
>message was a message
>from TimStarling contradicting what you said: "It's
>not that much of a
>strain. I actually added this to the language list as
>soon as I saw
>the post, thinking that since it has an ISO 639-2
>code, it would be
>uncontroversial."
I am not entirely sure you can compare
* the opinion of an anonymous person, as a representative, relevant and accurate sample of possibly one million people (reported by you)
* versus the opinion of one of our top developers, known by our whole community, as a sample of a team of perhaps 20 guys (reported by I)
But I suppose this is debatable indeed....
I noticed Tim comment. I remember I felt that though he was being gentle, it was probably a mistake for him to say this. Your comment just proved me right.
Setting a new wikipedia is one thing, maintenance is another. I think Tim mentionned several times how heavy this can be and I do not think he was making it up. You may choose to focus on one gentle comment he made once and forget all the times he complained, but I do not think this is how the rest of the community understood the situation. If you understood that setting up and maintaining a small wikipedia is no problem and easy at all, I beg that you remember we are all volunteers and reconsider your view on the situation.
>>> Also, such actions to censor minority language
websites are common in Turkish netcafes.
>> Do not generalized without citing facts.
>>Do not make appeal to pity by using the word minority out of context.
>Apparently, you need to look at the Ethnologue because Kurdish,
>Ladino, and all other non-Turkish languages of Turkey
>are minority languages - that is, they are spoken by less than 50%
>of the population. I fail to see how this is out of context, as it is an
>undeniable fact that, in the present boundaries of the nation of
>"Turkey", the majority language is Turkish, and thus
>all other languages are "minority languages" within the
>boundaries of that state.
Are you saying that connection to Wikipedia is impossible to Ladino or other non turkish-speaking people, while Wikipedia is available to turkish-speaking people ?
I do not think so.
We are talking of restriction of access to Wikipedia in internet cafes.
Not of minority languages being censored. Nor of minority languages people having their access to information restricted.
So, do not mix issues please. The issue *right now* is access to Wikipedia, not minorities rights not being respected.
> > >Right, so if I sent a letter to the government of Turkey requesting
> > >the release of H. Ertas, who was jailed just for editing a
> > >Turkish-language Kurdish culture category (not as I said earlier a
> > >category on terrorist groups) on DMOZ, there is some sort of
> > >requirement that, as a Wikipedian, I sign it "Mark Williamson
> > >(Wikipedia user Node_ue)"? There is life outside of Wikipedia, and
> > >there is activism independent of Wikipedia. I do not sign letters with
> > >my username and the fact that I am a Wikipedian unless it's relevant
> > >to the letter itself.
>> Do not change topics. We are talking of Wikipedia access only, not of
>> the DMOZ issue.
>Perhaps you did not read the letter which started this
>thread, written by Erdal Ronahi, in which he mentions the DMOZ issue?
>This is a mailinglist, and I will change topics whenever I want,
>regardless of what you say.
This is a mailing list about Wikipedia. There is a sort of expectation that we discuss about Wikipedia generally.
Not about languages minorities rights. Nor about DMOZ issues. Not about your political activity outside of Wikipedia.
Still, you may change topics if you wish and discuss whatever topic pleases you indeed, but do not expect necessarily that people follow you ;-)
Currently, I was trying to talk with you about Wikipedia access in Turkey. It seems very hard to focus on this specific topic.
>> If you want to be an activist out of Wikipedia, please be so, but do not
>> try to involve us in your advocacy.
>When did I try to involve "you" in "my advocacy"? I never said
>"Antheres of the world, I call upon you to support me in my advocacy!".
Sweetie, if you make a huge noise on media channels, explaining how outrageous it is that Turkey is so irrespectful of human rights, and sign it under your real name, it is just fine by me.
If you try to do make it appear that we, the wikipedia community, supports this as well, you involve us in your advocacy.
Consequently, any such bold move should only be done with support of your peers here.
I am pleased to know you would do this under your real name.
>> >>Give it time.
>> > Is this what you tell H. Ertas, who is going to spend the next ten
>> > months in prison just for editing a culture category on DMOZ? "Give it
>> > time, you will get out of prison eventually"?
>> And above all, avoid sneaky personal attacks.
>You said "give it time" in direct response to what I
>said. If you propose to give it time, this means to me the same as
>if you said "Give it time, you will get out of prison eventually"
>to Mr H Ertas.
All wikipedians have topics for which they care. For you, it is probably minorities and preservation of minority languages.
However, this is NOT Wikipedia goal, even if Wikipedia can help.
When I say "give it time", I talk about Wikipedia, not about your own fights.
"Give it time" means "do not jump on the Turkish government or on internet caffees owner immediately. Check if there is really censorship before. And even if there is, go slowly and allow them for keeping face. Don't call for help all human rights activist organizations. Do not scream hell in media".
"Give it time" does not mean "Just let the jerk shrivel in prison for the rest of his life. Who cares ?"
My "give it time" is related to Wikipedia, not to human rights issues in Turkey.
This is a mailing list about Wikipedia, not human rights in Turkey. Unless specified, my comments are about Wikipedia issues.
>That is not a sneaky personal attack.
>And I have this to say as well: above all, avoid
>assuming a hostile tone in messages unless you feel you will later be
>able to explain your tone, especially when the previous message is not
>hostile in tone.
>Mark
Implying that I just do not care at all for the guy in prison is hostile in tone.
Do not bother answering to this mail
At least, I will not comment any more :-)
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