Magnus wrote:
>This early version has no error checking (matching
><table>s etc.), but it already handles HTML tags
>(if necessary), CSS definitions, and nested tables.
Nice! You should work with Erik though on syntax since he is working on a
template system.
-- mav
OK, I'm a bit pissed. The first two voting "users" who I checked don't have
/any/ Wikipedia contributions. They linked to their user pages on de.wiki so
I checked their contribs;
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Spezial:Contributions&target=Azz…
Only contrib /ever/ was to create a user page
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Spezial:Contributions&target=And…
No contribs at all for this account
This is beyond the pale. I hereby call for a recount and a validation of every
vote; in order to have a vote counted each and every person should have to
declare which Wikipedia they are a contributor to and to provide a link to
their Wikipedia user page.
I'm not willing to propose what the defintion of a "contributor" is at the
moment, but certainly the two "users" above do not fit the bill.
-- Daniel Mayer (aka mav)
http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_polygon_map
Political maps use 2-level coloring schemes.
Main color is selected as to avoid 2 neighbour countries having the same color.
It's shade is selected randomly.
The problem is to select such N (N about 8) colors generators,
and such colors for seas, rivers, city and country labels,
and other objects (borders, river/mountains/island/sea labels etc.),
that makes maps most readable.
Currently used scheme is:
Colors for:
city dots white
city labels white
rivers #000060
seas #000060
country labels #FF8080
Color generator 0 # cyan
$r = rand 64;
$g = 160 + rand 64;
$b = 160 + rand 64;
Color generator 1 # green
$r = 64 + rand 64;
$g = 160 + rand 64;
$b = 64 + rand 64;
Color generator 2 # yellow-green
$r = 128 + rand 32;
$g = 192 + rand 64;
$b = rand 32;
Color generator 3 # greenish-blue
$r = rand 32;
$g = 64 + rand 64;
$b = 128 + rand 64;
Color generator 4 # yellow
$r = 128 + rand 64;
$g = 96 + rand 64;
$b = rand 32;
Color generator 5 # orange
$r = 128 + rand 64;
$g = 64 + rand 64;
$b = rand 64;
Color generator 6 # magenta
$r = 160 + rand 64;
$g = 64 + rand 64;
$b = 160 + rand 64;
Color generator 7 # gray
$r = 96 + rand 64;
$g = $r - 16 + rand 32;
$b = $r - 16 + rand 32;
But it doesn't give very good results.
Anyone with better idea for coloring ?
Anytime you have a vote with more than two alternatives you run into
problems. Any form of approval or average voting is just awful, awful,
Awful! Condorcet voting is just to complicated. So here is my suggestion:
Split the voting up in multiple yes/no votings.I have been in a
national's party's congress voting for a new logo and that is how we
made it; Make a cup out of it. Logo A vs. B, C vs. D, E vs. F, G vs. H.
(Vinner of A vs. B) vs (vinner of C vs. D), (Vinner of E vs F) vs.
(Vinner of G vs. H)... you get the point. In sports that system is
ineffective because placement beyond the first depens on which pairing
the team gets. But for this voting it is pefect because we only care
about ONE alternative - the vinner.
One disadvantage is that it takes some more time than other voting
methods and that is why it is not used for large scale votings. It
requires 13 separate votings for 16 alternatives. Another is that it
requires some attention from the voters. A third that someone might
object to how the alternatives is paired against each other. Should X
face Y and Z face O, or should O face X and Z face Y? That problem is
solved by letting a computer randomize the pairings.
But we can run the voting rounds simultaneously. If we have 16
candidates we can first run the 1/8's voting rounds simultaneously. Then
the quarter final round, semi final round and the final round. That is
four rounds and if we let each round take one month we are done in
January. Yes, that is a long time but a decision that involves so many
people and seems to be so important should be allowed to take the time
it needs! But we could instead have each round being two weeks long and
be done in eight weeks which definitely is not to much time.
We could even have used that method for the first voting stage.
Regardless of which method we use the last voting absolutely,
positively, definitely needs to be "Should this logo replace the
existing logo?". Maybe that question should have been the first to vote
about but it's to late to change that now.
BL
Erik,
I am a bit disturbed
You started the new logo contest. You made the pages,
you set the rules. Some people are following all the
cheating that is occurring along, and you have no
reaction whatsoever. A certain degree of cheating is
no big deal, but to my opinion, there are limits. I
think as the organizer of the contest, you could at
least react to some of the worse irregularities. Right
now, anyone can vote under an ip, anyone can vote
without anyone knowing them, anyone can replace the
logo of someone else by his, in particular in the top
10. And perhaps a logo which was in the top 10 before
being replaced by another won't be in the top 10
anymore, just because someone had fun replacing that
top 10 logo.
And there are no reactions whatsoever.
The logo issue in itself is not important. But again,
this case is an experiment. It is the experiment of
how of whole organization could work together with a
common decision process. With respect and honesty
toward those who created the artwork, and respect and
honesty toward those who came to vote, and have the
belief we are all sharing something.
User:Kat left a couple of days ago, because too
disgusted by the decision process on the en wiki,
among other things. Right now, at wikipedia-wide
level, community does not scale either. I think any of
the international votes are important because they are
big scale experiment of how a "big" community could
take decisions together.
If we are so careless with these kind of decisions, I
see not why we would be better with more important
decisions. What is occuring is reflecting a broken
organisation.
Since no one reacted except Olie himself, I will be
bold. Whatever the outcome of the logo contest, if
logo 124 is not in the top 10, there will be 11 logos
in the top 10.
And I also think the next international vote will need
to be much better organised.
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Andre Engels wrote:
>You do realize that taking your statement above literal,
>your own vote should not be counted? Your meta user
>page does not declare which Wikipedia you come from.
The link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Maveric149 should give you a
clue. A link by itself should be enough.
-- mav
Hello all
I have responded privately to Erik on all his very
kind comments.
I will just copy here one very technical part of it,
to explain why *I* think there is a problem.
Second, I note that Erik has decided to blame all on
me. That won't do it Erik.
Many months ago, a french person told me an ambassador
should not voice any personal position on the ML, for
fear of making appear the personal position as hir
wikipedia position. Today, Erik decides to blame the
ambassador for reporting criticism and problems
reported by other users.
Hence, I will from now on separate these two
identities and make better use of basic google
translations.
Anthere
---------------
When I say you have no reaction, I don't talk about
the anon votes. I saw your comments. I talk about the
cheating. I translate Olie report that people have
been cheating. I ask what we should do to compensate
the cheat. I suggest the different options I can
imagine. And I get no response from you. Since you are
the one who are gonna make the counts, I think you
could have answered the propositions I made to fix
things the best we could. To be fair to the artist. If
you do not answer, I consider that my propositions are
all fine by you, so I tell which one I will do. Which
is "adding the logo upon which was practiced the
vandalism to the list of final logos if it is not in
the final list you set".
Perhaps is there a cultural issue there ? On the en
wiki, I know people always suggest to be bold. On the
french wiki, most people insist it is better to
explain the changes we plan to do before hand. I
follow the french practice, and tell you what I will
do. Letting the opportunity for other propositions or
comments. No comments = all agree. Okay ?
Say there are some presidential elections, with 15
candidates, among which Chirac, LePen and Jospin. 100
people are voting.
The vote session last 7 hours.
If all goes fine, let's say Chirac makes 60, LePen
makes 16 and Jospin 15 .
At the end of the vote, Chirac and Lepen are left for
second turn, and Jospin goes crying in his mother's
arms.
Now, let's say that during 1 hour, the voting papers
for Lepen are replaced by those of Jospin.
Voters see there are two papers for Jospin perhaps,
they vote taking the wrong paper, but it does not
matter, the officials count the papers and Jospin is
still 15.
Now, there are quite a bunch of people who came during
that unfortunate hour, and they were not aware LePen
was a candidate. So, they use their votes
differently...perhaps, they vote for Noel Mam�re
instead of LePen! So, in the end, LePen votes are not
16, there are only 14.
Final results : Chirac 60, LePen 14 and Jospin 15.
Who goes crying in his mother's arms ?
Right.
I did not count, but about 20 people came to vote at a
moment 124 bulletin was not there. They did not see
the logo. Hence they could not vote for it.
So, I just say, if this logo is number 11th this
evening, it might be very unfair, for maybe 20 people
would have voted for it. Or perhaps none of them. We
just don't know.
Here is why I say, in any cases, this logo should be
there. If it is 11th, we should have 11th logos for
the final vote.
Or we need to contact ALL the individual voters who
came around when this logo was not available. Which
will be a real pain.
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I dont think its all that much of a mess -- so much to
blame Erik. It is a mess, though and there are some
lessons to be sifted from all of this -- but I think
for the most part -- as a preliminary round sort of
thing, I think its gone fairly well. Only one will win
out, and it looks like the puzzle concept is by far
the strongest, all around. It looked like a winner
from the beginning, and it still looks that way
(though its way too damn busy and cluttered as it is).
:I do not blame Erik for the mess; He is not
responsible of it. I am just unhappy that no one cares
the dies are loaded.
:and the fact one is likely to be the winner (which
suits me just fine) is no reason to accept the mess.
All in all, the next time a big vote comes around,
there needs to be
*radiobutton and cgi-counted votes -
*excluding repeat IPs
*standard time deadlines
*votes on the deadlines - not just a day or twos
discussion.
:protection of the propositions
All is well that doesnt fall on your head at
4km/second.
-S-
:of course Steve :-)
:I could also just forget those trying to fix the
mess, and let them explain the problem in their own
english themselves.
:Never mind. I will try to replace myself 14 months in
the past, when the french logo was changed and became
different from the general logo, and I will try to
focus on what having a common logo again means.
:-)
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I didn't vote for either 12 or 124, so that's one less person on your list
:)
Adam
>From: "Olie ze kat" <duprezolivier(a)nordnet.fr>
>Reply-To: Olie ze kat <kat(a)olid.fr.st>, wikipedia-l(a)Wikipedia.org
>To: wikipedia-l(a)Wikipedia.org
>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Re: Logo issue
>Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:43:54 +0200
>
>Anthere <anthere6(a)yahoo.com>, l'ami(e) des kats,
>avait papatté dans sa niouze :
>
>| Olie just reported someone replaced yesterday logo 124
>| per logo 12.
>|
>| This is a problem perhaps as it resulted from too many
>| votes for 12, and perhaps loss of votes for 124
>|
>| --------
>|
>| Three users have voted for logo 12 listed at 124
>|
>| I suggest they confirm their vote for the logo 12.
>| They have been removed from logo 124 (the original was
>| replaced)
>|
>| [[User:Hémant|Hémant]],
>| [[User:Jeanmichel|JeanMichel]],
>| [[User:Pit|pit]]
>|
>| Moreover, the following users have not seen logo 124,
>| and should be told to reconsider their vote perhaps
>|
>| Adam Bishop
>| Jtvisona
>| ELF
>| Gandalf
>| Etc...
>
>I think it will be too hard to contact all...because we dont know for all
>their
>basic Wikipedia Where we will be sure to contact.
>
>|
>| Following options.
>|
>| Either 124 have enough vote to be in the top 10, and
>| we forget about it
>|
>| Or not
>|
>| * We have 12 hours to find all these people above and
>| make them come back
>
>Too few to repair what the logo 124 lost !
>
>|
>| * we tell User:Abi that never mind his logo
>|
>| * We admit it per default, making 11 top 11
>
>Yes... logo 124 was always in top 10 ... If tomorrow it will not in top 10,
>I
>suggest that we add it on final voting.
>
>|
>| So ?
>|
>| (ah; voting security :-))
>|
>
>I'm too surprised that it could be a vandalism... We must survey more if
>its not
>a deceit :o(
>
>
>NB: Hémant has confirmed that he wanted to vote for logo 12...Somebody
>(deutsch)
>can explain to Pit on his personal page
>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Pit that he must confirm his vote for
>logo
>12 (simply move his name with another votes of logo 12)...Thank :op
>--
>Olie ze kat --------- http://www.olid.fr.st
>
>
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