Wikipedia-l September 2002

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66 participants
316 discussions

Re: Ban warning to GrahamN
by Poor, Edmund W 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

I've been thinking about this all day, and now I fear that I may have caused more trouble than I bargained for. The cure is worse than the disease. My "threat to ban" seems to have resulted in near-unanimous disapproval from Axel, Jimbo and every other contributor I admire and respect. All that remains is a ghostly, eerie silence on the Arab-Israeli article pages. Not only was I wrong, but I got the wrong result. (I'm not sure which is worse.) Free speech (as LDC might say) and no vandalism -- that's all we hope for, but by monkeying around with the "Ed Poor, sysop" thing I've thrown a monkey-wrench in the works. It may be some weeks before I live this down. :-( More contritely than ever, Ed Poor

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Wikipedia article on : Honr. B. Carroll Reece, Tennessee
by Helga Hecht 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

I know several of us worked for a while on an article about B. Carroll Reece. I do not find it in wikipedia now. I know I just read a mention of him in one the list messages. Can anyone who worked on it give me an idea as to what happened to the article ? Thanks a lot. H. Jonat -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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OffTopic: Looking for lots of XML (docbook) documents
by Marian Steinbach 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

Hi! What the subject line probably can't tell: In order to create a demo for a tool that processes and visualises the content of an xml document repository, I am looking for documents to experiment with. The ideal material would be in one single format, e.g. DocBook, and would come from a scientific area, ideally from one discipline. As I need the stuff for a demonstration, content is not as important as form. Do you guys know any source where I can freely download a number of let's say 50 - 5000 articles / papers matching the above requirements? I bet if things like that exist, there are people on this list who knoe about it. Thats why I dare to bother you with that stuff. Thanks in advance for any hints! Marian

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Re: Re: Ban warning to GrahamN
by Tim Marklew 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

Jimbo Wrote: >Not having reviewed the incident in question, I would tend to agree >with Axel here. Banning ips is supposed to be for vandalism of the >most obvious sort, like inserting random 'farts' in pages, or >uploading inappropriate pictures, etc. > >What did the guy say, anyway? For those who haven't been following this - GrahamN had posted a bad tempered message on Anti-Semitism/Talk in which he referred to the 'Zionist's desire to dominate all other ethnic groups in [Israel]' and similar. It was originally in response to a change to the page by SLRubenstein. I understand that Graham and SLR have since come to a civilised mutual understanding. There then followed a very lengthly, bad mannered and inappropriate exchange, mainly between GrahamN and another user, RK. Each was accusing Zionists or Non-Zionists of racism and bigotry in broadly equal measure (with RK liberally making allegations of anti-semitism, directed at April among others). Ed, I appreciate your attempts to stop this inappropriate argument on the talk page. However, using your sysop status to threaten banning people just isn't appropriate. In a situation like this it could be perceived that you were taking sides in an argument on behalf of Wikipedia, which is not what sysop status is for. In this case we were dealing with two known Wikipedia contributors, both of whom have made good contributions in the past. Reasoning with them is the approach to use here and a ban, or threat of one, totally inappropriate. I would also ask that sysops should not generally sign contributions as sysops (i.e. writing "Ed Poor - Sysop"). It could be give the misleading impression that sysops are acting officially on behalf of Wikipedia, rather than acting as an individual contributor. Tim (Enchanter) >Axel Boldt wrote: > > > >This is a warning: any more personal or provocative remarks, and I > > >will will ban you for a day. --Ed Poor, sysop > > > > ...and the ban will be undone immediately of course. Ed, please > > refrain from using your sysop status as if it were a position of > > power. > > > > Axel _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Re: [Wikipedia-l] Helga again
by Vicki Rosenzweig 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

At 03:16 PM 8/30/02 -0400, you wrote: > >I don't want to pick on Ed Poor, because I'm sure there are other > >examples I could use. But I think Ed Poor believes a lot of false > >things. I'm sure he thinks that I believe a lot of false things. > >Maybe I think he's a nut. Maybe he thinks I'm a nut. > > > >Fair enough, but he and I are both polite and reasonable, and I find > >it hard to envision a situation where we couldn't agree on what an > >encyclopedia article should say. > >What higher praise could one get? "Polite, reasonable nut". I like that :-) > >But seriously, isn't there any way to configure the software so that Helga >could contribute only when logged in? That is, ban her IP address, but not >her user ID (if you know what I mean)? > >Mav and others have told me that Helga's been a thorn in the project's >side for a year. But I think the way you've responded has been >inflammatory. No offense meant. > >Instead of hitting her over the head verbally with phrases like "she's at >it again" and "removed NPOV text" -- why not take a more low-key approach? >It's working for me in the Arab-Israeli conflict articles: We tried that. It didn't work. >"Removed to talk" -- concise, unemotional: clearly the text hasn't >disappeared but will be found on the talk page in a moment. > >"According to ..." >"Some advocates claim ..." >"Although most scholars believe X ..." And I refuse to write "although most scholars believe Hitler was always a Jew-hater, some people claim that the Jews declared war on Nazi Germany first", which is what we'd need to include Helga's theses. -- Vicki Rosenzweig vr(a)redbird.org http://www.redbird.org

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Misc. messages
by Helga Hecht 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

I am looking at all the messages and there are too many for me to all answer individually. Therefore I am sending a short condensed note: Michael R. Irwin, I agree with your approach on including information. It is a very good way of handling difficult situations and I hope that your recomendations will be followed. Ed Poor, you are really handling the 'budding heads' situations very well, by stepping in as a mediator. I agree with Vicki Rosenzweig..to let someone else write it. Mav, I like the filter idea, thanks. Fred Bauder (?), I never believe just one site or one source and I always try to check as many sources as possible. Jimbo Wales, the 'How to list' is fine, except one point says something to the effect, that I supposedly accused someone of trying to hide things. I wrote something in general, not specifically wikipedians. But then again, why are there articles disappearing in wikipedia ? To all of you, who wrote a welcome note, after my first message, thanks again to all of you. H. Jonat -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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Re: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Hi there!
by koyaanisqatsi＠nupedia.com 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

Karen wrote: >Yep, every group has somewhere to argue and this appears to be it! >Thanks for the idea of making an extra filter for my inbox to remove >conversations I'm not the slightest bit interested int... I hadn't >thought of it. I get this treat when I try it: Warning: Supplied argument is not a valid File-Handle resource in /home/nupstable/work-http/newsystem/phpwebmail/viewruleset.phtml on line 20 Warning: Supplied argument is not a valid File-Handle resource in /home/nupstable/work-http/newsystem/phpwebmail/viewruleset.phtml on line 21 Warning: Supplied argument is not a valid File-Handle resource in /home/nupstable/work-http/newsystem/phpwebmail/viewruleset.phtml on line 20 Warning: Supplied argument is not a valid File-Handle resource in /home/nupstable/work-http/newsystem/phpwebmail/viewruleset.phtml on line 21 ad infinitum. No, I won't say what I intended to filter. :-) kq

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ban attempt
by Poor, Edmund W 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

Okay, the "ban" is lifted. Gimme a break, okay? I just wanted to re-focus the talk constructively, but then Lee is like, let the kids bicker and pull hair, as long as they don't damage the furniture. Ed

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Ban warning to GrahamN
by Poor, Edmund W 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

I placed the following notice on GrahamN's user page: ---- Please refrain from giving your opinion in the Talk pages. Personal opinions of contributors are welcome in the MetaWikipedia (where, by the way, April is hosting a debate) -- as well as on your own User page. Article talk pages are for discussion of how to improve the article. If there is a point of view (POV) that you happen to agree with, which you think ought to be represented in the article, then please focus on how to describe that POV. Avoid arguing for or against any POV. Instead, help your co-contributors to learn which proponents advocate the POV, and what reasons those advocates give. For example, Joe Camel might say, "I hate Jews because they smell like lox." We need not debate how often an odor of lox is detectable in the vicinity of Jews (my Mom, who is Jewish, made me an excellent lox sandwich over Labor Day, by the way). We need not debate whether smelling like lox is a "good" reason to hate someone. All that matters is whether or not to mention Joe Camel's POV in some Wikipedia article. And if some contributor decides to describe that POV, we might debate the best choice of words to describe it. This is a warning: any more personal or provocative remarks, and I will will ban you for a day. --Ed Poor, sysop ---- Ed Poor

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Message 10 Wed 4 Sep 2002 06:30 by Dany..and other Internet kooks
by Helga Hecht 06 Sep '02

06 Sep '02

When you get bach to that message by daniwo59(a)aol.com you will find , that [[Dany]] titled his message: Helga and other Internet kooks. I am glag to see that no one has answered him on that (yet). I, for one, object to Dany's namecalling. It is inappropriate and namecalling should not be a wikipedia function. I will post the /talk, that took place here: Aloha? had posted 50.000, Danny changed it to 5.000 . What is the number? The next part was also taken out, which should be shown, especially in light of todays goings on and the previous talk, which seems to try to make them into a hate group, which they specifically reject. Though they number just some 50000, their vociferous attacks against Zionism and Israel as a secular state have earned them considerable attention. They instead argue that the true Israel can only be reestablished with the coming of the Messiah. The Neturei Karta website shows Israeli police clobbering the Torah-True Neturei Karta. They stand for the rights of the Palestinians and have good relations with the PLO and other Palestinian and Muslim organizations. Nowhere on their website does it state, that they hate Jews or anyone else. They state that they are against the (militant) Zionists violence, against them supressing Palestinians and against the Zionists wars including the 1933 war-declaration then and the possibility of all-out war now. Their website seems to say something to the effect of 100.000 followers? H. Jonat Helga, as the person who wrote the first draft of this article I do know a little about the subject. In fact, I did not look at the website when writing the article--I based it on my own independent research on the phenomenon of Neturei Karta, my close personal interactions with members of the community, and my readings and interpretations of their own texts and the texts of sociologists and anthropologists who studied them. To clarify some of the points you bring up: a website is hardly an informative account of a group. Anybody can put up a website and say whatever they want about anything, including themselves. It is an interesting source of information, no doubt, but the Internet per se is not always a reliable source. As regards Neturei Karta, I have a lot of problems with the website. For one, it is based in America, when the overwhelming majority of genuine Neturei Karta members live in Jerusalem. Then, of course, the vast majority of members of Neturei Karta would not own a computer, since this would bring them into contact with the outside world, and that is something they shun. The numbers are based on statistics from the Municipality of Jerusalem to which I have had formal access over the past few years. There are other groups which identify with Neturei Karta, but they are not Neturei Karta (Karta is an Aramaic term for "the city", meaning Jerusalem). Other anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox groups such as Satmar are not Neturei Karta. I removed the section beginning with "The Neturei Karta website shows ... " Yes it does. Do you know why they were "clobbered"? Because they were throwing rocks and bottles at cars driving on a highway in Jerusalem on the Sabbath. They wanted the highway to be closed for the Sabbath. An ambulance carrying a heart attack victim was hit with one of their rocks. How do I know this? I was there. Despite what the website implies, they were not "clobbered" because they are anti-Zionist. For the most part, the Israeli government leaves them alone. They barely even collect taxes from them. As for hating Jews, if you will look in the record of this discussion, I actually rejected the notion that they were anti-Semitic. I wrote this article to offer a fair presentation of their views, even though personally I may not share them. As for the "Zionist declaration of war," I have spoken with many Neturei Karta about many issues, including their attitudes toward Zionists, the Holocaust, and Nazism. Not one Neturei Karta member will tell you that the Jews or the Zionists initiated or sparked World War II. They do not even say that on their website. They do claim that Zionist actions made things worse for the Jews, and they do claim that the Holocaust was Divine retribution for the secular lifestyles of the Zionists. I will not get into a debate here about the way God works (if at all). I would like to examine their claim, which you seem to support. Looking at their website, which you cite, they give examples of how the Zionists made things worse. Hitler wanted to deport all the Jews from Europe to Mauritius (sounds like ethnic cleansing to me). The Zionists opposed it and they should have said yes, because in Neturei Karta's philosophy, Jews should be subservient to Gentiles until the coming of the Messiah. Now lets plug the statement into your assertion here and in the mailing list that the Holocaust was largely caused because some Jews (the Zionists) refused to be ethnically cleansed. Sorry, but that is anti-Semitic, and I do not use that term lightly. If I were to say that the German residents of Prussia were justly killed after World War II because they did not want to be expelled from Prussia, you could rightfully call me racist. How is the case of Jews in Europe any different. An interesting anecdote is that Ruth Blau, the widow of the late leader of Neturei Karta, Rabbi Amram Blau, is a French Catholic convert to Judaism. She met her husband when she part of the French underground, helping to smuggle Jews out of Europe during the Nazi reign of terror. She would never tell you that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust, even if she would say that the Holocaust was God's retribution for the sins of some Jews, including the Zionists. Finally, Helga, like everyone has already said: Examine your sources, examine your citations. Not every website is historically accurate. Not every historical claim has basis. I've avoided getting into this debate until now, but Helga, please realize that there are other people out there whose professional and academic fields do encompass your own interests. We also know our stuff, so if you don't want to get into vociferous arguments, please make sure your facts and interpretations are valid. Danny -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Danny I appreciate all your information. Believe me, I did/do not want to get into this either. I do know that there are a lot more Jewish people opposed to the radical violence perpetuated by the current situation. I do know that a Lady Ambassador (name?) came from Israel was on an emergency trip and on Ted Koppel's Night Line. She warned about the militant brutal force and worse put upon by a rivaling faction against other Jews. There are ladies or grandmothers in grey (or black),opposing , with Israeli soldiers attending. There is a lot more going on, than what the official version wants you to believe. I do not wish harm on any one or any one group. Therefore I have this feeling, that getting previous happenings out in the open, can somehow make a difference. Now everyone wants to make this 1933 Declaration of War out to be a 'minor little none-issue', not worse mentioning. But when you read the wiki or any other article that says, "the Nazi's forbade Germans to buy from Jewish stores", then it makes a lot more sense to say 'why', and the 'why' is the Decleration of War. Another factor not readily mentioned, is the Deal between Germany and Jewish people (Zionists), who since before 1900 already moved to Palestine and who continued to do so under the Nazi dictatorship. They took a lot of money out of Germany and started building the Jewish State, (some program named Havala? or something like this). I would not argue about any of the loud arguments, because I do not know enough details on this. Therefore I ask questions. Which brings me to the question on the numbers again. I guess until we know, we should just leave the numbers off alltogether? H. Jonat Helga, your ramblings here show that you have know idea what you are talking about, and I am being very polite in saying that. Personally, I find it insulting that you insinuate that I am a victim of some "official version" and not "the truth." Unlike you, I actually do know something about the topics mentioned here. For your information, we were talking about Neturei Karta, a reactionary group of a few thousand followers that opposes the state of Israel on principle, believing that Jews should be subservient to Gentiles until the Messiah comes. That is not some interpretation. That is what they say in their internal texts. I have read those texts. Women in Black is a grassroots organization of Israeli women opposed to the occupation of the West Bank. Yes, many Israelis are disturbed by the violence in Israeli society. I am also deeply concerned about the violence in Israeli society. This has little to do with Neturei Karta. It has to do with the Occupation. Period. Hitler and the Nazis did not forbid Germans to buy from Jews because of the so-called "Declaration of War." That is asinine. Are you ignoring Mein Kampf? Are you ignoring the Nazi campaign platform prior to Hitler coming to power? Are you ignoring Hitler's speeches and writings. We have records of all of them. We even have the records of Hitler's first public appearance at the German Worker's Party. (I have a copy in my office, if you'd like.) It was an anti-Semitic diatribe, plain and simple. It was also before any Nazi was elected to the Reichstag. Jews did not have any deal with the German government to move to Palestine. They fled Germany because of rampant anti-Semitism. As for your dates, political Zionism was founded in 1896. Herzl, the founder of the movement, negotiated unsuccessfully with the Kaiser to get a German protectorate in the region so that Jews could settle there. Until the 1930s, Jewish immigrants to Palestine came from Russia, not Germany. As for taking money out of Germany, they were fleeing for their lives. Some managed to take money out. Most did not. Most could not. It was illegal. Many spent all their money paying bribes to officials to get their children to England. It was called the Kindertransport. I am glad you admit you don't know much about this topic. It so happens that I do. As for the number of Neturei Karta members, at least you admit that you do not know it. Once again, I have studied this issue. I do have reasons for the numbers I give, and not just some stupid website. If you don't know the subject matter, don't writre about it. Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it beyond a doubt. A very irate Danny ------------------ To this [[Neturei Karta]]/Talk beteen Dany and myself I want to add, that 1. The number is still not substanciated. 2. Not only the Neturei Karta, but also the http://www.jewsnotzionist.org/ and the Woman in Black (or Women for Peace) http://adot.com/green/wib.html are demonstrating against Israeli violence etc. Contrary to Dany's denial of the there are people , who claim to have information, that in fact the Havaara undertaking was handled by later Israeli prime ministers incl Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharret(or Shertok), Golda Meir, Levi Eshkol http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zionmythgar.2.html google.com : Havaara , or Google.com Women in Balck, gives a number of websites. I am only bringing all this up, because of Dany's bad choice of a website title: Helga and other Internet cooks. I also want to substanciate my talk to Dany, that there are a lot more facts , that the general public is not aware of. I also stated that I do not want to get anyone hurt and that I have a great concern for people wanting to make war, war war... It was also before I found out that Dany works in the Holocaust memorial, which some writers including Jewish writers, might call the Holocaust industry. This is all I want to say about this. H. Jonat -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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Wikipedia-l September 2002