Hello again,
I gather that it the general agreement is that the User pages are for the
users' own use, and that it is bad manners for other Wikipedians to edit
them. Would it be sensible to formalise this as a definitive rule - in
fact, to make the page protected from edits by anyone but the user and the
sysops? Anyone who wishes to address the user would still be able to on
the associated Talk page, of course.
I don't know how difficult it would be to implement technically, but I
think it would be a good move to prevent people from vandalising other
people's User pages, as some are doing.
As for my presence on the Wikipedia, my User contributions go back to 8th
November 2002. (I made some anonymous edits earlier than that - back to
4th November 2002, the day on which I discovered the Wikipedia.) If you're
only seeing a partial list, you're probably only looking at the last
fifty, or those in the last few days, or something.
And I repeat, if anyone has any problems with my behaviour, please tell me
on my Talk page, or in a private e-mail.
Thanks,
Oliver
+-------------------------------------------+
| Oliver Pereira |
| Dept. of Electronics and Computer Science |
| University of Southampton |
| omp199(a)ecs.soton.ac.uk |
+-------------------------------------------+
>We the peoples of the formerly well-known nations of Shqiperi,
>Al-Jaza-ir, Hayastan, Druk-yul, Zhongguo, Hrvatska, Kalaalit Nunaat,
>Misr, Eesti, Viti, Ellas, al'Urdan, Choson Minjujuui In'min
>Konghwaguk, Taehan-Min'guk, Dhivehi Jumhuriya, Pyidaungsu Myanma
>Naingngandaw, and Aotearoa would prefer not to get lost, actually, so
>no thanks.
>
>You'd never get all our little marks right in your barbaric typefaces,
>so we're happy being known to you as Albania, Algeria, Armenia,
>Bhutan, China, Croatia, Greenland, Egypt, Estonia, Fiji, Greece,
>Jordan, North Korea, South Korea, the Maldives, Myanmar, and New
>Zealand.
No non-racist, non-imperialist person would ever refer to the city I
live in by anything other than its native name of "Yangma" -- or, if you
absolutely must, the English translation of that name: "The Valley of
the Smokes."
Of course, many people insist on using, not just the absurd name the
conquistadores gave it, but a barbarous truncation thereof. This
linguistic genocide must stop!
(This message is closed-smilied for the humor impared.)
--
Sean Barrett
sean(a)epoptic.com
Pax to your Thanksgiving, Jimbo. Please accept that
this is not about Lir, but rather just about
nomenclature and an attempt to support the way we've
been doing things.
I just read with interest what Lir's friends have to
say about the anglicisation (for you, Steve) of
foreign words. I also looked at what Lir had to say.
Based on that, I am even more convinced that the
article titles should remain in English. They are
completely valid words in English. Moreover, I was
just thinking about what we do with foreign names in
English. Often it's true that the names were changed
or misspelt or otherwise mutilated at Ellis Island.
Sometimes, though, the bearers of those names changed
them -- or their pronunciation -- to make them sound
more "American" (I think the same is true in England).
When one correctly pronounces those names (as I did
after living in Germany for several years), one is
often the immediate giver of offense.
Furthermore, when I think back to the old days of
"it's Prussia," "No, it's Poland," (the argument was
over what name to use for cites which spent much of
their history as part of Prussia, but are presently
located in Poland) the only way to come to a
reasonable agreement was to rely on what English
speakers most normally (and currently) use.
As for leading through good example -- I have to ask
about this. As I understand Lir's argument, he says:
It's correct to use the local name for a place,
because we should be more sensitive to others,
But speakers of other languages may in fact not do
this(I personally know people who speak French,
German, and Spanish as their native languages -- they
all use that language's version of US when speaking
the respective language)
If these other-language-speakers don't practice the
"local-name-use" rule, then they aren't behaving as
they should, BUT, we should be better than they are
and lead by example -- then they may catch on.
Can we please leave it alone, and accept that
languages reflect a good many things, but that, unless
terms are not translatable, it's best to try and speak
one language at a time in the Pedia?
Jules
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Matt (Montréalais) a ecrivé:
- Je me demande s'il existe une politique sur le Wiki français par rapport
- aux orthographes régionales de même qu'existe sur le Wiki anglais.
If this means that French and English wikipedias should have a similar naming convention for geographic terms, then I strongly agree.
I didn't understand the "Village gai" stuff. It sounds like a discussion about the [[gay village]] article, which in turn sounds like the idea of calling parts of various cities "Chinatown". As in, "I went to Chinatown last night and ate eggrolls at a Chinese restaurant."
I understand the slang use of "gay" as:
* referring to homosexuals & homosexuality
* becoming increasingly a mainstream term (as in "gay rights")
I apologize for my inability to read French accurately. Il y a 25 ans que je l'ai etudié.
Ed Poor, aka [[Edmond Le Pauvre]]
I just blocked 217.5.141.103. Some sysop on the German Wiki please do the
same. The block should be removed in a few hours, or sooner if he gets the
message.
phma
Jonathan wrote:
> To call those edits "vandalism" is to use far too strong a word,
> especially from an admitted newbie who isn't familiar with the full
> history of Lir's actions here.
Calling edits one doesn't agree with "vandalism" is analogous to calling
racial/ethnic discrimanation "genocide". Yes, some UN-sponsored treaties
have re-defined genocide so it means more (and less) than mass murder --
but that doesn't make killing 10 million civilians equivalent to not
welcoming refugees. Inhospitality is not murder.
I would really like everyone to stop throwing around the word
"vandalism" except in the narrowly-described cases of:
* scribbling graffiti, like "Hi, I'm a newbie"
* deleting a page without explanation
* obvious obscenity
We don't have a firm rule on name-calling, but if we ever do then I'm
going to make sure calling a fellow contributor a vandal is at the top
of the list.
Making an edit that isn't neutral is not an offense so terrible that it
justifies revenge. Besides, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
leaves us all blind and wearing dentures".
Ed Poor
MarderIII: should people pronounce the names of foreign places in the foreign manner?
Bakunin 18: Er, as they are pronounced by their populations?
MarderIII: yes
Bakunin 18: I think so
MarderIII: wikipedia banned me over that question
MarderIII: i really fucking hate people right now
Bakunin 18: You can't switch IPs?
MarderIII: i can
MarderIII: i already did it once
MarderIII: i found some good info on the Taino
MarderIII: and so i added it
MarderIII: and then some troll went and deleted it because I was banned and not allowed to contribute
Bakunin 18: That's... incredibly stupid.
MarderIII: they are also threatning to ban other people who don't think I was so uncontrollab
MarderIII: e
Bakunin 18: Is there not some head admin you can talk to?
MarderIII: he is very mad at me
Bakunin 18: Oh
MarderIII: should people pronounce the names of foreign places in the foreign manner?
opium4themasses: hrm
opium4themasses: well, it would be best if they did
opium4themasses: well no...
MarderIII: wikipedia banned me over the question
opium4themasses: erg?
MarderIII: I came to the conclusion that it boiled down to a latent racism from not considering the other culture's name to have any real tangible value in excess of the outsiders name
opium4themasses: hrm, maybe not racism
opium4themasses: more just egocentric
MarderIII: I believe names are very important
MarderIII: egocentrism is racism I believe
opium4themasses: it's more than just racism
MarderIII: should people pronounce the names of foreign places in the foreign manner?
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: no
MarderIII: why not?
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: because you are not in the foreign place
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: i have someone at work mad at me
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: someone in brazil
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: the program puts Brazil at the top of their report
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: however in Brazil they spell Brazil like this Brasil
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: they don't like that i spell brazil the correct way in the us
MarderIII: So shouldnt we start saying Brasil?
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: but if i spell it brasil then people in the us will think i spelled it wrong
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: no
MarderIII: they are just uneducated though
MarderIII: its Brasil
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: does germany call germany germany
MarderIII: Brazil is just a mistake that a foreigner made
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: or deustchland
MarderIII: Deutschland
MarderIII: I want to go to Deutschland
MarderIII: not Germany
MarderIII: Germany is an american tourist spot
MarderIII: Deutschland is a real place
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: i am sure the germans do not call the united states the united states
MarderIII: who are we to say what germans should do
MarderIII: we need to focus on us
MarderIII: and set a good example
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: yet it is proper to pronounce people's names as they pronounce them in their home country
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: so perhaps proper names should be pronounced as the local people wish them to be pronounced
MarderIII: I agree
MarderIII: and of course there are difficult questions
MarderIII: like what should Asia be called?
MarderIII: I for one, am not particular, as to whether we refer to it in Chinese or Vietnamese
MarderIII: but surely we should use an Asian language
MarderIII: and as Chinese are the most populous
MarderIII: I would much rather use the Chinese name for Asia
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: now i disagree
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: you should call everything whatever your local language calls it
MarderIII: why?
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: it is a different language
MarderIII: why should that matter?
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: your language can call it whatever it deems proper
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: it is language
MarderIII: thats a good point
MarderIII: languages are code
MarderIII: but what about names?
MarderIII: personal names?
Franz[name omitted for privacy reasons]: they should be as the person call themselves
MarderIII: what about Christopher Columbus
MarderIII: he never called himself such
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The Wikipedia seems to be inaccessible right now. Anybody know what's wrong and if it's something that's going to be fixed any time soon?
Zoe
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There's a particular kind of argument, often used in politics:
------------------------
A is VERY BAD.
B is an A.
Therefore, B is VERY BAD.
We all agree that genocide is bad. Especially those of us who are (or know) people who lest relatives in the [[Holocaust]].
G is very bad.
Israeli policy (settlements in the West Bank, etc.) is "genocide".
S is G.
Therefore, S is very bad.
--------------------------
We can pull the same trick with Vandalism.
V is very bad.
That edit is vandalism.
E is V.
Therefore, E is very bad.
It's what my logic textbook calls a "valid but unsound" argument. It's valid, because the conclusion really does follow from the premises. It's unsound, because not all of the premises are true.
It only takes one untrue premise to demolish the soundness of an otherwise "valid" argument.
I would like to request to all my fellow (and lady!) contributors that we not use the bludgeon of this kind of fallacious argument against one another.
Ed Poor