As an international community we have an opportunity to respond in a positive and healing way to the attacks in Paris as well as sharing our feelings of shock and sympathy.
Perhaps by planning open knowledge events to celebrate Parisian and GLAM-related Islamic culture, which we could announce in a few weeks time?
Thoughts?
Thanks, Fae
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its unfortunately its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all our other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer have been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care when we adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
On 15 November 2015 at 19:12, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
As an international community we have an opportunity to respond in a positive and healing way to the attacks in Paris as well as sharing our feelings of shock and sympathy.
Perhaps by planning open knowledge events to celebrate Parisian and GLAM-related Islamic culture, which we could announce in a few weeks time?
Thoughts?
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its unfortunately its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all our other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer have been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care when we adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a measured way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
<sarcasm> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, Christians, etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something horrible in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking bad guys with good guys. </sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com a écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its unfortunately its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all our other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer have been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care when we adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a measured way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Hoi, Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile. Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars, any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. Thanks, GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info wrote:
<sarcasm> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, Christians, etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something horrible in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking bad guys with good guys. </sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com a écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its unfortunately its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all our other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer have been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care when we adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a measured way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
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Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Hoi, Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally on the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of how faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the claims are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated and unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as far as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the problem at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.
I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded religion and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition of Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
[1]: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks, GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info wrote:
<sarcasm> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, Christians, etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something horrible in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking bad guys with good guys. </sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com a écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its unfortunately its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all our other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer have been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care when we adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a measured way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing. It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info a écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com a écrit :
Hoi, Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally on the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of how faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the claims are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated and unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as far as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the problem at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.
I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded religion and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition of Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
Thanks, GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info wrote:
<sarcasm> > Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > Christians, > etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something > horrible > in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has > nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some > other > historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be > linking > bad guys with good guys. > </sarcasm> > > But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman > > > Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com> a > écrit : > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are >>> not >>> about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a >>> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its >>> unfortunately >>> its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. >>> >>> Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores >>> all >>> our >>> other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer >>> have >>> been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care >>> when we >>> adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of >>> association >>> immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia >>> >>> >> Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with >> Islam. >> The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being >> neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are >> being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a >> worldwide perspective. >> >> However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not >> because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because >> some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the >> world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better >> protected, and that creates an elevation of its own. >> >> I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a measured >> way. >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Gallery >> >> -- >> John Vandenberg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" christophe.henner@gmail.com a écrit :
I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing. It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info a écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Hoi, Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.
I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks, GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info wrote:
<sarcasm> > Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > Christians, > etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something > horrible > in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has > nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some > other > historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be > linking > bad guys with good guys. > </sarcasm> > > But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman > > > Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
a
écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are
not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its unfortunately its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all our other communities who have over the last week, months. year or
longer
have been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care when we adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a
measured
way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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,
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What I said was I think we should be cautious about linking the items Fea proposed both because of the generalisations - stereotypes it would elevate because of Wikipedias online authority.
I pointed out that Wikimedians as a community strectches beyond Western Europe and North America and that we have contributors across the world who have been affected by terrorism a case in point there was being reported an attack in Turkey this morning which is when I posted my comment but there is no changing of french flags for turkish ones on fb(Yes I know not our problem). Are we going to single out the French community as being more important than the Turkish Ukrainian, Filipino, Thai, Nigerian, Australian, Tunisian, Pakistani and the many others I havent even mentioned who have suffered attacks in the last 12 months, then we should be very careful on why and any association we make
I appreciate Fea's reasoning and commend them
On 16 November 2015 at 15:14, Pierre-Selim pierre-selim@huard.info wrote:
Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" christophe.henner@gmail.com a écrit :
I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing. It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to
make
it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked :
tolerance,
understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info a écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Hoi, Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me
personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get
off
the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance
and
bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because
I
didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two
distinct
questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is
that
they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.
I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other
faiths,
specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the
imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed
upon
by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks, GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info
wrote:
<sarcasm> > Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > Christians, > etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something > horrible > in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually
has
nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking bad guys with good guys.
</sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <
jayvdb@gmail.com>
a
écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris
are
> not > about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not
a
> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its > unfortunately > its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. > > Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris
ignores
> all > our > other communities who have over the last week, months. year or
longer
> have > been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise
care
> when we > adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of > association > immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia > > Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from
a
worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another,
because
some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a
measured
way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
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Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed be bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. I don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by itself is meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you can perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what actually connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent tragedies like these.
But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this aspect of the thread die on its own.
We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds, as these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building upon.
On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" christophe.henner@gmail.com a écrit :
I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing. It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info a écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Hoi, Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks, GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info wrote:
<sarcasm> > Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > Christians, > etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something > horrible > in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has > nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some > other > historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be > linking > bad guys with good guys. > </sarcasm> > > But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman > > > Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>
a
écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are > not > about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a > reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its > unfortunately > its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. > > Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores > all > our > other communities who have over the last week, months. year or
longer
> have > been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care > when we > adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of > association > immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia > > Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam. The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a
measured
way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- John Vandenberg
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
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Hoi, Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate.
While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people no longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer on their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to their own.
When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:
Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed be bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. I don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by itself is meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you can perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what actually connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent tragedies like these.
But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this aspect of the thread die on its own.
We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds, as these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building upon.
On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" <christophe.henner@gmail.com
a écrit :
I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing. It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info a écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Hoi,
Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the
problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is
that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks,
GerardMOn 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info wrote:
<sarcasm>
Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, Christians, etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something horrible in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking bad guys with good guys.
</sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg < jayvdb@gmail.com>
a
écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com
> wrote: > > Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris > are > >> not >> about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not >> a >> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its >> unfortunately >> its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. >> >> Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris >> ignores >> all >> our >> other communities who have over the last week, months. year or >> > longer
have
>> been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise >> care >> when we >> adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of >> association >> immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia >> >> >> Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links > with > Islam. > The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being > neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are > being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from > a > worldwide perspective. > > However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not > because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, > because > some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the > world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better > protected, and that creates an elevation of its own. > > I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a > measured
way.
> > > >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
--
> John Vandenberg > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Hi,
My email was an answer to this topic going to the religion ground, sorry if it was interpretated otherwise.
More to the point. As a movement, we must never remember that we ARE diverse. That is one of the thing I love the most is that twice a year I do actually get to meet people from the other side of the world and learn. And whatever happens in Paris, I believe, as Wikimedians, this is what we should push forward. That no matter what, we cherish that diversity. That we're documentin all of knowledge and culture.
To be slightly more blunt, I'm totally unconfortable with giving a focus on Paris when, at the same time, people die on a daily basis by the hand of the same people in many other countries. Sadly, everyday thre are acts of terror all around the world. And the one in Paris is not more important in the end. Our westerners bias make it looks like more important, but it's not.
So if we could, and I don't know if we could, I would rather see an initiative start to digitally document as best as we can every piece of culture/architecture/history the're trying to destroy. That would be meaningful I think. Though, I have no idea how we could achieve it.
I'm sorry I jumped so quickly, but I'm really pissed of by many many things today and seeing that topic going off track berserked me (that is something that happens rarely to me :) )
Best,
-- Christophe
On 16 November 2015 at 11:20, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate.
While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people no longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer on their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to their own.
When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:
Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed
be
bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. I don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by itself
is
meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you can perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what
actually
connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent tragedies like these.
But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this aspect of the thread die on its own.
We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds,
as
these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building
upon.
On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" <
christophe.henner@gmail.com
a écrit :
I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing
more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural
thing.
It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that
jump
starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info a écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Hoi,
Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of
the
problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me
personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example
of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion
and
second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance
and
bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned
because I
didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and
however
disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct questions. Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is
that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people
do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable
that
said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the
imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks,
GerardMOn 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <
isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info>
wrote:
<sarcasm>
> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > Christians, > etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something > horrible > in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually > has > nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be
some
> other > historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be > linking > bad guys with good guys. > </sarcasm> > > But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman > > > Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg < > jayvdb@gmail.com> > a
écrit :
> > On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra gnangarra@gmail.com > >> wrote: >> >> Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris >> are >> >>> not >>> about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was
not
>>> a >>> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its >>> unfortunately >>> its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. >>> >>> Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris >>> ignores >>> all >>> our >>> other communities who have over the last week, months. year or >>> >> longer
have
>>> been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise >>> care >>> when we >>> adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of >>> association >>> immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia >>> >>> >>> Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links >> with >> Islam. >> The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're
being
>> neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are >> being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner
from
>> a >> worldwide perspective. >> >> However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation,
not
>> because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, >> because >> some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the >> world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better >> protected, and that creates an elevation of its own. >> >> I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a >> > measured
way.
>> >> >> >>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
--
>> John Vandenberg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Kaya
I know I have contributed to the confusion here and for that I apologize, thank you Christophe for express better what I was getting at.
Can I suggest that we choose period to put focus on the positive aspects of the migration over the last 70 years, including the various UN charters and treaties that have been signed regarding refugee of ways in which new cultures have influenced or changed our own societies. A kind of displaced peoples month, its something every country has experienced, every community has dealt with whether its transient populations in temporary settlements or new residents, its global, its neutral and can be shared equally. Additionally its an opportunity affiliates can use to open Wikipedia up to new editors who can share their multilingual capacity to share knowledge across projects
I like to share what an award winning Australian Journalist said about the way people have responded to the attacks http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/waleed-aly-hits-out-at-isis-over-par...
On 16 November 2015 at 20:25, Christophe Henner <christophe.henner@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi,
My email was an answer to this topic going to the religion ground, sorry if it was interpretated otherwise.
More to the point. As a movement, we must never remember that we ARE diverse. That is one of the thing I love the most is that twice a year I do actually get to meet people from the other side of the world and learn. And whatever happens in Paris, I believe, as Wikimedians, this is what we should push forward. That no matter what, we cherish that diversity. That we're documentin all of knowledge and culture.
To be slightly more blunt, I'm totally unconfortable with giving a focus on Paris when, at the same time, people die on a daily basis by the hand of the same people in many other countries. Sadly, everyday thre are acts of terror all around the world. And the one in Paris is not more important in the end. Our westerners bias make it looks like more important, but it's not.
So if we could, and I don't know if we could, I would rather see an initiative start to digitally document as best as we can every piece of culture/architecture/history the're trying to destroy. That would be meaningful I think. Though, I have no idea how we could achieve it.
I'm sorry I jumped so quickly, but I'm really pissed of by many many things today and seeing that topic going off track berserked me (that is something that happens rarely to me :) )
Best,
-- Christophe
On 16 November 2015 at 11:20, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate.
While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people
no
longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer
on
their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to
their
own.
When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal. Thanks, GerardM
On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos zhorishna@gmail.com wrote:
Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may
indeed
be
bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not
addressed. I
don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by
itself
is
meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you
can
perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what
actually
connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent tragedies like these.
But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this
aspect
of the thread die on its own.
We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds,
as
these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building
upon.
On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:
Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" <
christophe.henner@gmail.com
a écrit :
I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion".
They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing
more.
It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural
thing.
It's hate. Simple and plain hate.
They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that
jump
starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country.
Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech.
So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want
to
make it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, understanding, love.
That would the best answer we could make.
Thanks
PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after
that
week-end I couldn't restrain myself Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info
a
écrit :
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <
gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
a écrit :
Hoi, > Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who > beliefs > on one pile. > > I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of
the
problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me
personally
on
the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of
being
violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
> get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that. > > I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example
of
how
faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the
claims
are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people
get
off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely
underestimated
and
unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion
and
second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance
and
bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant
as
far
as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned
because I
didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and
however
disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest
of
Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
> interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two > distinct > questions. > Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars, > > "Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an
excuse
to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars
make
mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the
problem
at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people
do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion
and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable
that
said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the
imposition
of
Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of
the
subject of this thread. Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-socie...
Thanks, > GerardM > > On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <
isacdaavid@isacdaavid.info>
> wrote: > > <sarcasm> > >> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, >> Christians, >> etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do
something
>> horrible >> in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it
actually
>> has >> nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be
some
>> other >> historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would
be
>> linking >> bad guys with good guys. >> </sarcasm> >> >> But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman >> >> >> Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg < >> jayvdb@gmail.com> >> > a
écrit : >> >> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra <
gnangarra@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in
Paris
>>> are >>> >>>> not >>>> about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was
not
>>>> a >>>> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its >>>> unfortunately >>>> its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. >>>> >>>> Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris >>>> ignores >>>> all >>>> our >>>> other communities who have over the last week, months. year
or
>>>> >>> longer
have >>>> been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should
exercise
>>>> care >>>> when we >>>> adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of >>>> association >>>> immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia >>>> >>>> >>>> Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links >>> with >>> Islam. >>> The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're
being
>>> neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world
are
>>> being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner
from
>>> a >>> worldwide perspective. >>> >>> However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation,
not
>>> because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, >>> because >>> some places are more treasured by larger number of people of
the
>>> world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better >>> protected, and that creates an elevation of its own. >>> >>> I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a >>> >> measured
way. >>> >>> >>> >>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galler...
-- >>> John Vandenberg >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: >>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
?subject=unsubscribe>
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This thread went to a bad place surprisingly fast, even for this list.
I understand that emotions are high, but please keep your tempers in check and your discussion on-topic. Whatever you may think of Fæ's proposal, I don't think it was intended to provoke a religious argument, which I hope everyone can recognize as being outside the scope of wikimedia-l.
Thanks,
Austin
Hoi, I blogged earlier .. http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2015/11/wikipedia-on-syria-and-iraq-in-light-of.html Thanks, GerardM
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2015/11/wikipedia-on-syria-and-iraq-in-li...
On 15 November 2015 at 12:12, Fæ faewik@gmail.com wrote:
As an international community we have an opportunity to respond in a positive and healing way to the attacks in Paris as well as sharing our feelings of shock and sympathy.
Perhaps by planning open knowledge events to celebrate Parisian and GLAM-related Islamic culture, which we could announce in a few weeks time?
Thoughts?
Thanks, Fae -- faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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