Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com> a écrit :
Hoi,
Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who
beliefs
on one pile.
I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the
problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me
personally on the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious
people of being violent.
Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for
people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.
I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of
how faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what
the claims are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some
people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely
underestimated and unacknowledged, firstly because most people
subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the
criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and
bigotry. But this is irrelevant as far as my original reply to
Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that
point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that
these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and
interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive
their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.
As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the
sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two
distinct
questions.
Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,
"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is
that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as
an excuse to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree,
scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to
evaluate the problem at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed
conflict, average people do.
any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many
major points.
I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this
doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded
religion and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so
comfortable that said major points don't include things like
intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death
penalty for adultery, the imposition of Sharia in Western judicial
systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of
Muslims.[1]
By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the
subject of this thread.
Regards
[1]:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-soci…
Thanks,
GerardM
On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <isacdaavid(a)isacdaavid.info>
wrote:
<sarcasm>
Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims,
Christians,
etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something
horrible
in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually
has
nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some
other
historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be
linking
bad guys with good guys.
</sarcasm>
But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg
<jayvdb(a)gmail.com> a
écrit :
On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra
<gnangarra(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Not sure we should be making such a link as
the events in Paris
are not
about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not
a
reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its
unfortunately
its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.
Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris
ignores all
our
other communities who have over the last week, months. year or
longer
have
been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise
care
when we
adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of
association
immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia
Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links
with Islam.
The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being
neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are
being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from
a
worldwide perspective.
However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not
because a citizen of one country is more valued than another,
because
some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the
world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better
protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.
I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a
measured
way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galle…
--
John Vandenberg
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