Hoi, I blogged earlier .. <http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2015/11/wikipedia-on-syria-and-iraq-in-light-of.html> Thanks, GerardM http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2015/11/wikipedia-on-syria-and-iraq-in-l… On 15 November 2015 at 12:12, Fæ &lt;faewik(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

<sarcasm> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, Christians, etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something horrible in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking bad guys with good guys. </sarcasm> But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg &lt;jayvdb(a)gmail.com&gt; a écrit :

Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; a écrit : I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally on the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent. I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of how faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the claims are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated and unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as far as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims. "Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the problem at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do. I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded religion and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition of Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1] By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread. Regards [1]: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-soci…

Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" &lt;christophe.henner(a)gmail.com&gt; a écrit :

Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may indeed be bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not addressed. I don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by itself is meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you can perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what actually connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent tragedies like these. But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this aspect of the thread die on its own. We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds, as these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building upon. On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote:

Hoi, Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate. While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people no longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer on their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to their own. When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal. Thanks, GerardM On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos &lt;zhorishna(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Kaya I know I have contributed to the confusion here and for that I apologize, thank you Christophe for express better what I was getting at. Can I suggest that we choose period to put focus on the positive aspects of the migration over the last 70 years, including the various UN charters and treaties that have been signed regarding refugee of ways in which new cultures have influenced or changed our own societies. A kind of displaced peoples month, its something every country has experienced, every community has dealt with whether its transient populations in temporary settlements or new residents, its global, its neutral and can be shared equally. Additionally its an opportunity affiliates can use to open Wikipedia up to new editors who can share their multilingual capacity to share knowledge across projects I like to share what an award winning Australian Journalist said about the way people have responded to the attacks http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/waleed-aly-hits-out-at-isis-over-pa… On 16 November 2015 at 20:25, Christophe Henner &lt;christophe.henner(a)gmail.com > Hi, > > My email was an answer to this topic going to the religion ground, sorry if > it was interpretated otherwise. > > More to the point. As a movement, we must never remember that we ARE > diverse. That is one of the thing I love the most is that twice a year I do > actually get to meet people from the other side of the world and learn. > And whatever happens in Paris, I believe, as Wikimedians, this is what we > should push forward. That no matter what, we cherish that diversity. That > we're documentin all of knowledge and culture. > > To be slightly more blunt, I'm totally unconfortable with giving a focus on > Paris when, at the same time, people die on a daily basis by the hand of > the same people in many other countries. > Sadly, everyday thre are acts of terror all around the world. And the one > in Paris is not more important in the end. Our westerners bias make it > looks like more important, but it's not. > > So if we could, and I don't know if we could, I would rather see an > initiative start to digitally document as best as we can every piece of > culture/architecture/history the're trying to destroy. That would be > meaningful I think. Though, I have no idea how we could achieve it. > > I'm sorry I jumped so quickly, but I'm really pissed of by many many things > today and seeing that topic going off track berserked me (that is something > that happens rarely to me :) ) > > Best, > > > -- > Christophe > > On 16 November 2015 at 11:20, Gerard Meijssen &lt;gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com&gt; > > > Hoi, > > Do read about exclusion (a sociology term) and given the people concerned > > it fits. The reason people give and the mechanisms involved are separate. > > > > While we suffer for France, we will suffer the consequences when people > no > > longer appreciate that one of the universal human rights is the right to > > religion. I was amused to learn about Pastafinarians who had a strainer > on > > their head for their drivers license.. The point is very much each to > their > > own. > > > > When it must be ridiculous to call a spade a spade you fail to appreciate > > that the hate that is directed to Islam is exactly what was intended. So > > have a ball and help those assholes achieve their goal. > > Thanks, > > GerardM > > > > On 16 November 2015 at 09:36, Isarra Yos &lt;zhorishna(a)gmail.com> > > > > Isaac David makes good points, and writing it off as racist and > > > discrimination is ridiculous. The people who did these things may > indeed > > be > > > bloodlusty assholes, but what led them to this is important too, and > > > denying that will only ensure that it is not understood, not > addressed. I > > > don't care if this is the way to tolerance, either - tolerance by > itself > > is > > > meaningless; all you need to do is ignore, and not question, and you > can > > > perhaps tolerate anything. What is more difficult is understanding and > > > love, because for these you have to learn, but these are also what > > actually > > > connect people and allow them to help each other, and to help prevent > > > tragedies like these. > > > > > > But if you really don't wish to see this discussed, then simply do not > > > discuss it. Don't tell people to shut the fuck up, simply let this > aspect > > > of the thread die on its own. > > > > > > We work on these projects to help people learn, and to learn ourselves. > > > Fae's proposal was not a bad one to this end, and Gnangarra brings up > > > related topics that are also of relevance. These should not be at odds, > > as > > > these are all important, and all worth working on, covering, building > > upon. > > > > > > > > > On 16/11/15 07:14, Pierre-Selim wrote: > > > > > >> Just +1 on the stfu. > > >> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" < > > christophe.henner(a)gmail.com > > >> > > > >> a écrit : > > >> > > >> I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion". > > >>> > > >>> They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing > > more. > > >>> > > >>> It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural > > thing. > > >>> It's hate. Simple and plain hate. > > >>> > > >>> They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that > > jump > > >>> starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better > > >>> culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country. > > >>> > > >>> Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech. > > >>> > > >>> So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want > to > > >>> make > > >>> it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : > > >>> tolerance, > > >>> understanding, love. > > >>> > > >>> That would the best answer we could make. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks > > >>> > > >>> PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after > that > > >>> week-end I couldn't restrain myself > > >>> Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" &lt;isacdaavid(a)isacdaavid.info&gt; > a > > >>> écrit : > > >>> > > >>> Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen < > > gerard.meijssen(a)gmail.com > > >>>> > > >>>> a écrit : > > >>>> > > >>>> Hoi, > > >>>>> Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who > > >>>>> beliefs > > >>>>> on one pile. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of > > the > > >>>> problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me > > personally > > >>>> > > >>> on > > >>> > > >>>> the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of > being > > >>>> violent. > > >>>> > > >>>> Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to > > >>>> > > >>>>> get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example > > of > > >>>> > > >>> how > > >>> > > >>>> faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the > > >>>> > > >>> claims > > >>> > > >>>> are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people > get > > >>>> off > > >>>> the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely > underestimated > > >>>> > > >>> and > > >>> > > >>>> unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion > > and > > >>>> second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance > > and > > >>>> bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant > as > > >>>> > > >>> far > > >>> > > >>>> as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned > > because I > > >>>> didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely > > >>>> dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, > > >>>> whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and > > however > > >>>> disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest > of > > >>>> Muslims. > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its > > >>>> > > >>>>> interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two > > >>>>> distinct > > >>>>> questions. > > >>>>> Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> "Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is > > >>>> that > > >>>> they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an > > >>>> > > >>> excuse > > >>> > > >>>> to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars > make > > >>>> mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the > > >>>> > > >>> problem > > >>> > > >>>> at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people > > do. > > >>>> > > >>>> any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. > > >>>> I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this > > >>>> doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded > > >>>> > > >>> religion > > >>> > > >>>> and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable > > that > > >>>> said major points don't include things like intolerance for other > > >>>> faiths, > > >>>> specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the > > imposition > > >>>> > > >>> of > > >>> > > >>>> Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed > > >>>> upon > > >>>> by big fractions of Muslims.[1] > > >>>> > > >>>> By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of > the > > >>>> subject of this thread. > > >>>> Regards > > >>>> > > >>>> [1]: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > > http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-soci… > > >>> > > >>>> Thanks, > > >>>>> GerardM > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David < > > isacdaavid(a)isacdaavid.info&gt; > > >>>>> > >>>>> > > >>>>> <sarcasm> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > > >>>>>> Christians, > > >>>>>> etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do > something > > >>>>>> horrible > > >>>>>> in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it > actually > > >>>>>> has > > >>>>>> nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be > > some > > >>>>>> other > > >>>>>> historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would > be > > >>>>>> linking > > >>>>>> bad guys with good guys. > > >>>>>> </sarcasm> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg < > > >>>>>> jayvdb(a)gmail.com&gt; > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> a > > >>> > > >>>> écrit : > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra < > gnangarra(a)gmail.com&gt; > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in > Paris > > >>>>>>> are > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> not > > >>>>>>>> about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was > > not > > >>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its > > >>>>>>>> unfortunately > > >>>>>>>> its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris > > >>>>>>>> ignores > > >>>>>>>> all > > >>>>>>>> our > > >>>>>>>> other communities who have over the last week, months. year > or > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> longer > > >>> > > >>>> have > > >>>>>>>> been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should > exercise > > >>>>>>>> care > > >>>>>>>> when we > > >>>>>>>> adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of > > >>>>>>>> association > > >>>>>>>> immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links > > >>>>>>> with > > >>>>>>> Islam. > > >>>>>>> The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're > > being > > >>>>>>> neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world > are > > >>>>>>> being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner > > from > > >>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>> worldwide perspective. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, > > not > > >>>>>>> because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, > > >>>>>>> because > > >>>>>>> some places are more treasured by larger number of people of > the > > >>>>>>> world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better > > >>>>>>> protected, and that creates an elevation of its own. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> measured > > >>> > > >>>> way. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Galle… > > >>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>>>>> John Vandenberg > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > >>>>>>> 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