*There are at least 2 major character errors in the current Wikipedia puzzle-globe logo, and other minor problems. *[[User talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo]] is the most centralized discussion/link compilation that I know of. (There's even a petition at that link's projectpage) *Nohat has explained the problems with correcting the errors. But noone seems to have a solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo#Changing_... *'''Somebody with patience and brains (there are many ramifications/implications, from the practical to the legal, to be considered), and either delegating or computer-graphics skills, needs to adopt this problem as a personal mission, lest it remain unsolved for another year'''.
(copied from [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Wikipedia Logo - errors]].)
It's been mentioned at various VPump pages, relevant userpages, and metapages, over the past few months, to no avail. I'm not sure how/where else to get this issue the attention it seems to need (and I don't have the background to spearhead the effort). Any assistance would be appreciated.
Quiddity
I posted this to foundation-l and wikipedia-l a week ago, with no response, so am now reposting to those, plus wikien-l.
*There are at least 2 major character errors in the current Wikipedia puzzle-globe logo (Devanagari and Japanese), and other minor problems (antialiasing, misplaced accents, more?). *[[User talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo]] is the most centralized discussion/link compilation that I know of. (There's even a petition at that link's projectpage) *Nohat has explained the problems with correcting the errors. But noone seems to have a solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo#Changing_... *'''Somebody with patience and brains (there are many ramifications/implications, from the practical to the legal, to be considered), and either delegating or computer-graphics skills, needs to adopt this problem as a personal mission, lest it remain unsolved for another year'''.
(copied from [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Wikipedia Logo - errors]].)
It's been mentioned at various VPump pages, relevant userpages, and metapages, over the past few months, to no avail. I'm not sure how/where else to get this issue the attention it seems to need (and I don't have the background to spearhead the effort). Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Quiddity
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
Mark (who added the subtitle for that very logo in PS for about a gazillion languages)
On 13/06/07, quiddity blanketfort@gmail.com wrote:
I posted this to foundation-l and wikipedia-l a week ago, with no response, so am now reposting to those, plus wikien-l.
*There are at least 2 major character errors in the current Wikipedia puzzle-globe logo (Devanagari and Japanese), and other minor problems (antialiasing, misplaced accents, more?). *[[User talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo]] is the most centralized discussion/link compilation that I know of. (There's even a petition at that link's projectpage) *Nohat has explained the problems with correcting the errors. But noone seems to have a solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo#Changing_... *'''Somebody with patience and brains (there are many ramifications/implications, from the practical to the legal, to be considered), and either delegating or computer-graphics skills, needs to adopt this problem as a personal mission, lest it remain unsolved for another year'''.
(copied from [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Wikipedia Logo - errors]].)
It's been mentioned at various VPump pages, relevant userpages, and metapages, over the past few months, to no avail. I'm not sure how/where else to get this issue the attention it seems to need (and I don't have the background to spearhead the effort). Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Quiddity
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to see your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic then I would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0 mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
Honestly Japanese community doesn't take the strange letter as Japanese, but "something trying to be similar" and asked at least once Nohat to change it with the correct genuine one(s) based on consensus but rejected he had no interest to make a such change by request (he said he had no enough time to handle it).
It is already a FAQ "what represents the funny character?" on VP and community consensus is it is not a Japanese letter, but some just weird figures, there are also some figures which can never be letter used on this globe, ever. I know Japanese community is not happy with those two letters, and some takes it a sign WMF has no interest toward Japanese projects and its culture.
Personal I have no strong opinion on that issue, though I admit it is hardly to be considered a thoughtful design, rather a typical misrepresenting other cultures of Westerners (personally I love this kind, since it makes me ... smile at least).
Just for your information.
On 6/15/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to see your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic then I would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0 mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
It is actually Japanese, it is "kwi".
Although not used in any actual words, the fact that it is genuine letters is not possible to negate.
In fact, it is used in Okinawan dialect/language with some frequency.
Mark
On 14/06/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly Japanese community doesn't take the strange letter as Japanese, but "something trying to be similar" and asked at least once Nohat to change it with the correct genuine one(s) based on consensus but rejected he had no interest to make a such change by request (he said he had no enough time to handle it).
It is already a FAQ "what represents the funny character?" on VP and community consensus is it is not a Japanese letter, but some just weird figures, there are also some figures which can never be letter used on this globe, ever. I know Japanese community is not happy with those two letters, and some takes it a sign WMF has no interest toward Japanese projects and its culture.
Personal I have no strong opinion on that issue, though I admit it is hardly to be considered a thoughtful design, rather a typical misrepresenting other cultures of Westerners (personally I love this kind, since it makes me ... smile at least).
Just for your information.
On 6/15/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to see your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic then I would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0 mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 6/15/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
It is actually Japanese, it is "kwi".
Honestly now you prove you are not of literacy in Japanese ... (not a criticism, but a fact) . It is "Wa" + (little) "i" in fact and this combination has never happened in the Japanese orthography, at least since the invention of kata-kana in the early Heian era (9th C).
Although not used in any actual words, the fact that it is genuine letters is not possible to negate.
In fact, it is used in Okinawan dialect/language with some frequency.
Mark
On 14/06/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly Japanese community doesn't take the strange letter as Japanese, but "something trying to be similar" and asked at least once Nohat to change it with the correct genuine one(s) based on consensus but rejected he had no interest to make a such change by request (he said he had no enough time to handle it).
It is already a FAQ "what represents the funny character?" on VP and community consensus is it is not a Japanese letter, but some just weird figures, there are also some figures which can never be letter used on this globe, ever. I know Japanese community is not happy with those two letters, and some takes it a sign WMF has no interest toward Japanese projects and its culture.
Personal I have no strong opinion on that issue, though I admit it is hardly to be considered a thoughtful design, rather a typical misrepresenting other cultures of Westerners (personally I love this kind, since it makes me ... smile at least).
Just for your information.
On 6/15/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to see your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic then I would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0 mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
That's most definitely "ku". If it is wa, that is a very strangely written wa.
On 15/06/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
On 6/15/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
It is actually Japanese, it is "kwi".
Honestly now you prove you are not of literacy in Japanese ... (not a criticism, but a fact) . It is "Wa" + (little) "i" in fact and this combination has never happened in the Japanese orthography, at least since the invention of kata-kana in the early Heian era (9th C).
Although not used in any actual words, the fact that it is genuine letters is not possible to negate.
In fact, it is used in Okinawan dialect/language with some frequency.
Mark
On 14/06/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly Japanese community doesn't take the strange letter as Japanese, but "something trying to be similar" and asked at least once Nohat to change it with the correct genuine one(s) based on consensus but rejected he had no interest to make a such change by request (he said he had no enough time to handle it).
It is already a FAQ "what represents the funny character?" on VP and community consensus is it is not a Japanese letter, but some just weird figures, there are also some figures which can never be letter used on this globe, ever. I know Japanese community is not happy with those two letters, and some takes it a sign WMF has no interest toward Japanese projects and its culture.
Personal I have no strong opinion on that issue, though I admit it is hardly to be considered a thoughtful design, rather a typical misrepresenting other cultures of Westerners (personally I love this kind, since it makes me ... smile at least).
Just for your information.
On 6/15/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to see your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic then I would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0 mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Come on Mark, do you really want to teach Japanese people how they should read their syllabary? :-)
You are ja-3 and I am ja-1, so I don't think I have anything to teach you; probably you disregarded a few facts. The top left strike of this sign starts right at the horizontal strike level and is straight. If it's supposed to be a "ku", I have never seen such a poor font as it makes it completely indistinguishable from a classical wa in italic type.
To be a "ku", it should have the top left strike curved and start above the corner of the horizontal one. Each font decides its balance between those: in general, the higher it starts, the less curved it is. Some very thick fonts make it start at the horizontal line level, but they make it very curved. Without this, it would be too difficult to distinguish a ku from a wa... See reference 3 (sorry, it's the first website using lots of different fonts and styles that has popped into my mind :-) ) for some examples using italics or not, bold or not, or play with notepad and some unicode fonts.
If I am wrong, I would gladly welcome any serious example (ie. not handwritten or made as a play on word) that breaks this rule to improve my personal knowledge of the Japanese language.
Actually, I am pretty sure the author wanted to put a 'u', so as to make "Wi"(kipedia, like we have 'W' in latin script). And "u" is just a strike added on top of "wa". Actually, I only had a quick look to the logo in the past and did not notice the typo; I had, it seems, automatically corrected it and have always thought about it as "wi".
Anyway, being a bad ku or an italic wa with a normal small i, it is just crap. But no matter the respect I have for Japanese people, I have to agree with Alison that it might be a little expensive to correct a typo if we consider the fact that the Foundation try to not protect every name of Wikipedia everywhere because of cost... Personally, I don't pay much attention to this logo so maybe I don't realize really well if it is worth it for Japanese or not. I don't know the real cost either.
Dewa mata ne, Jerome (Eden2004)
References: 1: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo.png 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katakana#Table_of_katakana 3: http://jump.shueisha.co.jp/home.html (11th box in the center left stack: wan piisu in italic type; under the main banner: PWJ topikkusu written in italic bold type; same place, more on the right: chekku written in italic type)
2007/6/15, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com:
That's most definitely "ku". If it is wa, that is a very strangely written wa.
On 15/06/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
On 6/15/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
It is actually Japanese, it is "kwi".
Honestly now you prove you are not of literacy in Japanese ... (not a criticism, but a fact) . It is "Wa" + (little) "i" in fact and this combination has never happened in the Japanese orthography, at least since the invention of kata-kana in the early Heian era (9th C).
Although not used in any actual words, the fact that it is genuine letters is not possible to negate.
In fact, it is used in Okinawan dialect/language with some frequency.
Mark
On 14/06/07, Aphaia aphaia@gmail.com wrote:
Honestly Japanese community doesn't take the strange letter as Japanese, but "something trying to be similar" and asked at least
once
Nohat to change it with the correct genuine one(s) based on
consensus
but rejected he had no interest to make a such change by request (he said he had no enough time to handle it).
It is already a FAQ "what represents the funny character?" on VP and community consensus is it is not a Japanese letter, but some just weird figures, there are also some figures which can never be letter used on this globe, ever. I know Japanese community is not happy
with
those two letters, and some takes it a sign WMF has no interest
toward
Japanese projects and its culture.
Personal I have no strong opinion on that issue, though I admit it
is
hardly to be considered a thoughtful design, rather a typical misrepresenting other cultures of Westerners (personally I love this kind, since it makes me ... smile at least).
Just for your information.
On 6/15/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to
see
your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic
then I
would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But
perhaps
you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly
formed
Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- KIZU Naoko Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
- habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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- habent enim emolumentum in labore suo *
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
-- Refije dirije lanmè yo paske nou posede pwòp bato.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Fri, June 15, 2007 00:03, Peter Halasz wrote:
But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Not especially 'happy', no, however the existing logo (for all its possible faults*) is the one which is a registered trademark and the cost / time of trying to change that world-wide would probably be excessive when there are better things (ymmv) to spend the cash on.
Alison Wheeler
* There used to be a saying "It's not a fault, it's a feature" and maybe that applies in this case too. The glyphs-which-aren't demonstrate that there is 'design' involved rather than the logo just being a collection of standard typography. As such one might argue that by having these 'faults' we are ensuring it is a registrable trademark.
It's not that I don't want to see it repeated.
It's that after getting no response to something he posted to 3 different lists, he decided it would work better if he just posted it again.
Mark
On 14/06/07, Peter Halasz email@pengo.org wrote:
Usually, no response means nobody cares, not "it got lost in the tubes, please post again until people tell you to stop."
There's no need to be rude. I appreciate that you don't want to see your photoshopping work repeated, but if I followed your logic then I would have expected no response to the Creative Commons 3.0 mention here (22 replies, though no definitive ruling *cough*). But perhaps you're correct that English speakers are happy to have poorly formed Devanagari and a Japanese typo on the logo.
Peter Halasz.
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 6/15/07, Mark Williamson node.ue@gmail.com wrote:
It's not that I don't want to see it repeated.
It's that after getting no response to something he posted to 3 different lists, he decided it would work better if he just posted it again.
Mark
I initially posted it to the 2 low volume lists (as suggested to me at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Wikipedi...) and when noone replied, I tried again but included the high volume wikien-l.
I'm trying to be polite, concise, and neutral, and not clutter the "request for help" with details. I'm only aware of the problems because people kept asking if they were going to be fixed as part of the Sidebar redesign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Village_pump_%28proposals%29/Sid...).
If you believe that the effort of fixing our single most prominent international symbol is more troublesome than the ill-regard the mistakes engender, then I will cease trying to be helpful in this matter.
Quiddity
Additional detail: Most languages use the original image as a base, with the obvious accent errors. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nohat-Wiki-logo-2.png however a handful of languages use the newer image, which has the accent errors removed. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo.png See the list at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia
So we're inconsistent too.
Quiddity
Article in the NYTimes today, covering some of the logo problems. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/25/technology/25wikipedia.html?ex=1340424000&...
That's all, just a followup.
Quiddity
Sandy (our Comm. Manager) is in touch with David to see which changes can be made to the glyphs.
Not that the whole hubbub isn't a bit silly; the logo is meant to represent multilingualism as a concept, not any particular language.
On 6/25/07, quiddity blanketfort@gmail.com wrote:
Article in the NYTimes today, covering some of the logo problems. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/25/technology/25wikipedia.html?ex=1340424000&...
That's all, just a followup.
Quiddity
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On 6/25/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote: ....
Not that the whole hubbub isn't a bit silly; the logo is meant to represent multilingualism as a concept, not any particular language.
I'm conflicted. I feel guilty [always] for re-raising the issue and distracting anyone from encyclopedic endeavours. However...
Aphaia's June 14 comments,
"I know Japanese community is not happy with those two letters, and
some takes it a sign WMF has no interest toward Japanese projects and its culture" and
"...though I admit it is hardly to be considered a thoughtful
design, rather a typical misrepresenting other cultures of Westerners" seem like a polite understatement. I think that it's Anglo/Eurocentric to think otherwise. (Although, the misplaced accents over the Ω and и (omega and cyrillic I) perhaps lend credence to the "by having these 'faults' we are ensuring it is a registrable trademark" theory.)
Again, sorry for distracting. I was just trying to be helpful. Quiddity
quiddity wrote:
On 6/25/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote: ....
Not that the whole hubbub isn't a bit silly; the logo is meant to represent multilingualism as a concept, not any particular language.
I'm conflicted. I feel guilty [always] for re-raising the issue and distracting anyone from encyclopedic endeavours. However...
Well, is *anyone* happy about the Klingon letter at the top of the Wikipedia logo? We don't (thankfully) even have a project in that language anymore, and I think it falls short of the mark of multilingualism.
Dominic
On 6/25/07, Dmcdevit dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
quiddity wrote:
On 6/25/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote: ....
Not that the whole hubbub isn't a bit silly; the logo is meant to represent multilingualism as a concept, not any particular language.
I'm conflicted. I feel guilty [always] for re-raising the issue and distracting anyone from encyclopedic endeavours. However...
Well, is *anyone* happy about the Klingon letter at the top of the Wikipedia logo? We don't (thankfully) even have a project in that language anymore, and I think it falls short of the mark of multilingualism.
I am. I think it's entertaining. I'm glad Wikipedia has a sense of humor about its imperfection. I think institutions of our civilization would benefit from more self-deprecation.
The Cunctator wrote:
On 6/25/07, Dmcdevit dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
quiddity wrote:
On 6/25/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote: ....
Not that the whole hubbub isn't a bit silly; the logo is meant to represent multilingualism as a concept, not any particular language.
I'm conflicted. I feel guilty [always] for re-raising the issue and distracting anyone from encyclopedic endeavours. However...
Well, is *anyone* happy about the Klingon letter at the top of the Wikipedia logo? We don't (thankfully) even have a project in that language anymore, and I think it falls short of the mark of multilingualism.
I am. I think it's entertaining. I'm glad Wikipedia has a sense of humor about its imperfection. I think institutions of our civilization would benefit from more self-deprecation.
And since we have also been addressing the notability of what more out-of-universe evidence can there be than the inclusion of Klingon?
Ec
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, The Cunctator wrote:
On 6/25/07, Dmcdevit dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
Well, is *anyone* happy about the Klingon letter at the top of the Wikipedia logo? We don't (thankfully) even have a project in that language anymore, and I think it falls short of the mark of multilingualism.
I am. I think it's entertaining. I'm glad Wikipedia has a sense of humor about its imperfection. I think institutions of our civilization would benefit from more self-deprecation.
I'm certainly not unhappy about it. A completely novel character on one of the pieces would also be interesting.
SJ
On 6/26/07, Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, The Cunctator wrote:
On 6/25/07, Dmcdevit dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
Well, is *anyone* happy about the Klingon letter at the top of the Wikipedia logo? We don't (thankfully) even have a project in that language anymore, and I think it falls short of the mark of multilingualism.
I am. I think it's entertaining. I'm glad Wikipedia has a sense of humor about its imperfection. I think institutions of our civilization would benefit from more self-deprecation.
I'm certainly not unhappy about it. A completely novel character on one of the pieces would also be interesting.
I'm not unhappy about it either; it's a nice little joke for the few people who will notice independently, and hey, we did say *all* languages...
I'm more unhappy about the two completely blank pieces on the bottom, which I hadn't even really noticed before the current discussion! Sigh. Just something else to solve when/if a 3-D version is developed, I suppose. Have there been any projects to brainstorm about what all the other characters on the other side of the globe might be?
Incidentally: There is a version of the logo on meta w/ English text that has the accent error described removed: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/9/91/Nohat-logo-XI-big-text.png Is there some reason we're not using that on the actual site, instead of the old one? I guess as Alison points out the accented one is the trademarked one, though if both versions are getting used on community sites they should both be trademarked... not sure how trademarking of versions of logos works, we'd need a competent US trademarks lawyer to opine.
phoebe
On 6/26/07, phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote: ...
Incidentally: There is a version of the logo on meta w/ English text that has the accent error described removed: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/meta/9/91/Nohat-logo-XI-big-text.png Is there some reason we're not using that on the actual site, instead of the old one?
See also: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo_thue.png as pointed out just today at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo#All_the_r...
and as I said June 16:
Most languages use the original image as a base, with the obvious accent errors. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Nohat-Wiki-logo-2.png however a handful of languages use the newer image, which has the accent errors removed. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo.png See the list at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia
So we're inconsistent too.
e.g. in these languages: http://ar.wikipedia.org/ http://am.wikipedia.org/ http://lt.wikipedia.org/ etc
On 6/26/07, phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Have there been any projects to brainstorm about what all the other characters on the other side of the globe might be?
not officially, that I've stumbled upon, but see http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?s=2144ea4c40276381c754e9f6670... specifically this image http://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?s=2144ea4c40276381c754e9f6670... and http://hdiss.net/bpeters/PuzzleBall_A.wmv
appears to be by User:Metaeducation, I'll ask him what happened with it.
quiddity wrote:
On 6/26/07, phoebe ayers phoebe.wiki@gmail.com wrote:
Have there been any projects to brainstorm about what all the other characters on the other side of the globe might be?
not officially, that I've stumbled upon, but see http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?s=2144ea4c40276381c754e9f6670... specifically this image http://blenderartists.org/forum/attachment.php?s=2144ea4c40276381c754e9f6670... and http://hdiss.net/bpeters/PuzzleBall_A.wmv
appears to be by User:Metaeducation, I'll ask him what happened with it.
If it could be produced as a foam 3-D Puzzle it would be a great promotional item.
Ec
On 27/06/07, Ray Saintonge saintonge@telus.net wrote:
If it could be produced as a foam 3-D Puzzle it would be a great promotional item.
People will complain the last piece is missing ;-)
- d.
I think it is great that we have Klingon character there. Statistically speaking, no-one* will know what kind of character it actually is, and it will be an interesting easteregg when people discover it. Something that makes people smile. I can't see any bad implications whatsoever coming from it; how can it posibly hurt us?
* How many percent of the world's population have ever heard of Klingon? And of those who have heard of it, how many have ever seen anything written in Klingon with the Klingon alphabet? And of these, how many would recognize the one Klingon character in the logo without knowing what it is beforehand?
On 6/25/07, Dmcdevit dmcdevit@cox.net wrote:
quiddity wrote:
On 6/25/07, Erik Moeller erik@wikimedia.org wrote: ....
Not that the whole hubbub isn't a bit silly; the logo is meant to represent multilingualism as a concept, not any particular language.
I'm conflicted. I feel guilty [always] for re-raising the issue and distracting anyone from encyclopedic endeavours. However...
Well, is *anyone* happy about the Klingon letter at the top of the
Wikipedia logo? We don't (thankfully) even have a project in that language anymore, and I think it falls short of the mark of multilingualism.
Dominic
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On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 00:20 +0200, Jon Harald Søby wrote:
I think it is great that we have Klingon character there. Statistically speaking, no-one* will know what kind of character it actually is, and it will be an interesting easteregg when people discover it. Something that makes people smile. I can't see any bad implications whatsoever coming from it; how can it posibly hurt us?
- How many percent of the world's population have ever heard of Klingon? And
of those who have heard of it, how many have ever seen anything written in Klingon with the Klingon alphabet? And of these, how many would recognize the one Klingon character in the logo without knowing what it is beforehand?
The plural of anecdote is not data and all that, but I for one never knew there were any Klingon characters in the logo. That said, I've never really studied the logo at length or anything—I usually just mentally process it as "globe with bunch of characters from various scripts"—nor do I know the first thing about Klingon.
Slowking Man wrote:
On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 00:20 +0200, Jon Harald Søby wrote:
I think it is great that we have Klingon character there. Statistically speaking, no-one* will know what kind of character it actually is, and it will be an interesting easteregg when people discover it. Something that makes people smile. I can't see any bad implications whatsoever coming from it; how can it posibly hurt us?
- How many percent of the world's population have ever heard of Klingon? And
of those who have heard of it, how many have ever seen anything written in Klingon with the Klingon alphabet? And of these, how many would recognize the one Klingon character in the logo without knowing what it is beforehand?
The plural of anecdote is not data and all that, but I for one never knew there were any Klingon characters in the logo. That said, I've never really studied the logo at length or anything—I usually just mentally process it as "globe with bunch of characters from various scripts"—nor do I know the first thing about Klingon.
An additional anecdatum:
I am a bit of a "Trekkie", at least to the point where I know there's such a thing as Klingon (probably more of Trekkie than just that). And I've been around Wikipedia/Wikimedia long enough to remember the conflicts over the Klingon Wikipedia.
I never knew there was a Klingon character in the logo. And I *still* can't figure out for sure which one it is.
I also agree that it may not actively hurt us to have the character in the logo, and it's much more important to fix any issues with the "real" characters in the logo.
But, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to try to include more characters from natural languages. Couldn't someone whose native script is not included see it as a subtle form of bias against their script? Of course, we can't include *all* scripts, but to include an invented script instead...
Just wondering.
-Rich
On 6/27/07, Rich Holton richholton@gmail.com wrote:
I never knew there was a Klingon character in the logo. And I *still* can't figure out for sure which one it is.
The one in the far top right, it looks sort of like a distorted "F".
I also agree that it may not actively hurt us to have the character in the logo, and it's much more important to fix any issues with the "real" characters in the logo.
But, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to try to include more characters from natural languages. Couldn't someone whose native script is not included see it as a subtle form of bias against their script? Of course, we can't include *all* scripts, but to include an invented script instead...
We have space for eighteen characters, though not all of them will be easily visible. It would be good to represent as many broad categories of writing systems as possible. This article (there are also versions in half a dozen other languages) gives what seems to me to be a pretty good list of script types from which we could pick examples (though I'm not a linguist):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems
(Although, the misplaced accents over the Ω and и (omega and cyrillic I) perhaps lend credence to the "by having these 'faults' we are ensuring it is a registrable trademark" theory.)
I don't know about omega, but cyrillic letter I with diacritic (Й) is legal (It is the eleventh letter in the Russian alphabet). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_I
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