Dear Aishik, Kindly consult with Wikimedia Affiliations Committee (AFFCOM). Please perform a valid case study before engaging to this. There is also the Wikimedia Regional Hubs being discussed within the Movement Strategy. ESEAP is one of them. Kind regards, *Butch Bustria* Coordinator East, Southeast Asia and the Pacific On Thu, May 25, 2023, 11:59 AM Aishik Rehman <aishikrehman(a)gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

Dear Bodhisattwa and Butch Bustria, Thank you for your responses and expressing your concerns regarding the establishment of WAP User Group. I appreciate your input and would like to provide further clarification on the matter. Firstly, I want to emphasize that we have acknowledged the significance of engaging with the Wikimedia Affiliations Committee (AffCom) and have initiated contact with them to seek guidance and ensure that we align with established processes and protocols. We understand the importance of following the correct procedures and conducting thorough evaluations. It is crucial to note that at this stage, our user group has not been officially recognized by AffCom. We are currently in the initial stages of establishing our presence and are actively seeking guidance and support from relevant committees to ensure a collaborative and harmonious approach within the Wikimedia ecosystem. We recognize the existing user groups and chapters operating in Asian countries and understand the need for coordination, consensus, and collaboration with them. Our aim is to complement and work alongside these affiliations, rather than duplicate or create conflicts. We are committed to fostering positive relationships and avoiding any misunderstandings or overlaps. To provide clarity and transparency, we have shared relevant links to our project page on Meta-Wiki, which outlines our goals, mission, and activities as a potential user group. It is essential to note that the project page serves as a platform to present our intentions and engage in constructive discussions with the community. We are committed to addressing any concerns and ensuring that all perspectives are heard and considered. We appreciate your concerns and valuable insights and assure you that we are actively engaging with AffCom to seek their guidance and expertise. Our intention is to align ourselves with established processes and work collaboratively with existing affiliations in the region. We invite you to participate in the ongoing discussions and provide your valuable feedback. We are open to further dialogue and are committed to finding common ground and fostering regional cooperation. Thank you for your attention and understanding. We look forward to continued engagement and productive discussions. Best regards, Aishik Rehman _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

Well, this is strange and interesting at the same time. There is a lot going on inside South Asian communities that have been hidden from the world and have started to surface now. I have made an effort to analyze and document my observations regarding the "WAP UG" and have outlined them in the following list: 1. The primary concern is undoubtedly the non-compliance of this UG with the standard Affcom procedures, indicating either a lack of capacity or willingness to adhere to the requisite rules for the initiation of a UG. 2. The home wiki for all three contact persons listed on the meta page happens to be bnwiki. Notably, two of them are part of the bnwiki admin panel, which comprises a total of 13 editors. bnwiki serves as the home wiki for six out of the eight members affiliated with this UG also. 3. One of the three contact persons has explicitly stated on their user page that they are an associate member of Wikimedia Bangladesh. Furthermore, the other two individuals have close affiliations with the local chapter in Bangladesh. Their names can be found in the CoT <https://w.wiki/5ZZo> for the implementation of the local Wikimania in 2022. Those of us involved in the local movement, including myself, are aware that these three individuals constitute a significant portion of the capable workforce within Wikimedia Bangladesh. It is very unlikely that the local chapter's three most active and leading organizers would make such a substantial leap without internal discussions within Wikimedia Bangladesh, and it is puzzling that the chapter appears to be unaware of this. It is worth noting that there are allegations of off-wiki harassment against at least one of these three UAP UG contact persons. Additionally, Wikimedia Bangladesh is facing backlash within the local community. 4. Operating an organization without formal recognition from Affcom does not present a fundamental obstacle. I, myself, am leading two non-affiliate organized groups and believe that these non-affiliate groups are essential to make the movement more distributed and transparent. But, to a lot of people, getting recognized as affiliate leaders is rewarding enough which may set unrealistic expectations. Personally, I am not a big fan of the affiliate structure based on my observations in the local movement, as they sometimes prioritize political territoriality over productive endeavors. From my experience, it appears that affiliates function as the sole authority within a designated territory determined by Affcom, and they are prepared to safeguard their sovereignty over that territory (including the onwiki spaces covered by the language or culture of the territory) at any cost. Regarding Bodhisattwa's expectations, it is improbable that Wikimedia Bangladesh, "being a decentralized organization and with good community connection and support", would extend assistance to other organizations within their territory. Unfortunately, this local affiliate has a troubling history of suppressing emerging leadership in order to maintain control over its perceived "territory." 5. I am concerned that the emergence of this UG is an inevitable outcome of long-standing tensions that have remained concealed within the region for decades. It's more of what we can see with the naked eye. The South Asian community has complex dynamics that are tricky to figure out. There are currently several conflicting parties here without anyone to mediate. WMF couldn't solve the legal complexities of sending grants here even after working for more than a decade. The conflict was previously managed due to the professional support extended by WMF in recent years. But WMF started destroying that capacity themselves through the so-called "budget and staff cuts" recently. There is literally no expert in the WMF with in-depth knowledge about the socio-political realities of this region, which is essential for mediating between these confronting parties and continuing the resource flow and professional support here. Consequently, conflict appears to be unavoidable. I have made an attempt to articulate some of the shared perspectives held by many local volunteers that often remain unvoiced on the global stage, where they need to be heard. You may understand that I won't be able to present everything, but I have tried my best while staying within the boundary that preserves my safety. Hope it helps to understand the depth of the situation. Best, Rafi _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

Well, this is strange and interesting at the same time. There is a lot going on inside South Asian communities that have been hidden from the world and have started to surface now. I have made an effort to analyze and document my observations regarding the "WAP UG" and have outlined them in the following list: 1. The primary concern is undoubtedly the non-compliance of this UG with the standard Affcom procedures, indicating either a lack of capacity or willingness to adhere to the requisite rules for the initiation of a UG. 2. The home wiki for all three contact persons listed on the meta page happens to be bnwiki. Notably, two of them are part of the bnwiki admin panel, which comprises a total of 13 editors. bnwiki serves as the home wiki for six out of the eight members affiliated with this UG also. 3. One of the three contact persons has explicitly stated on their user page that they are an associate member of Wikimedia Bangladesh. Furthermore, the other two individuals have close affiliations with the local chapter in Bangladesh. Their names can be found in the CoT <https://w.wiki/5ZZo> for the implementation of the local Wikimania in 2022. Those of us involved in the local movement, including myself, are aware that these three individuals constitute a significant portion of the capable workforce within Wikimedia Bangladesh. It is very unlikely that the local chapter's three most active and leading organizers would make such a substantial leap without internal discussions within Wikimedia Bangladesh, and it is puzzling that the chapter appears to be unaware of this. It is worth noting that there are allegations of off-wiki harassment against at least one of these three UAP UG contact persons. Additionally, Wikimedia Bangladesh is facing backlash within the local community. 4. Operating an organization without formal recognition from Affcom does not present a fundamental obstacle. I, myself, am leading two non-affiliate organized groups and believe that these non-affiliate groups are essential to make the movement more distributed and transparent. But, to a lot of people, getting recognized as affiliate leaders is rewarding enough which may set unrealistic expectations. Personally, I am not a big fan of the affiliate structure based on my observations in the local movement, as they sometimes prioritize political territoriality over productive endeavors. From my experience, it appears that affiliates function as the sole authority within a designated territory determined by Affcom, and they are prepared to safeguard their sovereignty over that territory (including the onwiki spaces covered by the language or culture of the territory) at any cost. Regarding Bodhisattwa's expectations, it is improbable that Wikimedia Bangladesh, "being a decentralized organization and with good community connection and support", would extend assistance to other organizations within their territory. Unfortunately, this local affiliate has a troubling history of suppressing emerging leadership in order to maintain control over its perceived "territory." 5. I am concerned that the emergence of this UG is an inevitable outcome of long-standing tensions that have remained concealed within the region for decades. It's more of what we can see with the naked eye. The South Asian community has complex dynamics that are tricky to figure out. There are currently several conflicting parties here without anyone to mediate. WMF couldn't solve the legal complexities of sending grants here even after working for more than a decade. The conflict was previously managed due to the professional support extended by WMF in recent years. But WMF started destroying that capacity themselves through the so-called "budget and staff cuts" recently. There is literally no expert in the WMF with in-depth knowledge about the socio-political realities of this region, which is essential for mediating between these confronting parties and continuing the resource flow and professional support here. Consequently, conflict appears to be unavoidable. I have made an attempt to articulate some of the shared perspectives held by many local volunteers that often remain unvoiced on the global stage, where they need to be heard. You may understand that I won't be able to present everything, but I have tried my best while staying within the boundary that preserves my safety. Hope it helps to understand the depth of the situation. Best, Rafi _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

To everyone, Thank you for your continued engagement and valuable feedback regarding the establishment of the UG. We have carefully considered the concerns raised regarding the name and the inclusion of the ESEAP region. We are committed to addressing these issues and ensuring a conflict-free and effective user group. Regarding the name, we understand the importance of avoiding possible conflicts and overlaps. We are open to considering a non-geographical name that better represents the collaborative nature of our user group. We welcome suggestions and input from the community in this regard. In terms of the ESEAP region, we recognize the need for a balanced approach. We are also open to excluding the region if it helps mitigate conflicts and ensures effective collaboration. We seek serious advice and assistance from those with experience and expertise to help us navigate these considerations. To Rafi, we appreciate your input, but we want to clarify that we have no links or conflicts with Wikimedia Bangladesh. Our focus is on building a user group that complements and collaborates with existing affiliates. Your concerns regarding Wikimedia Bangladesh are not relevant to the establishment and functioning of the WAP UG. We invite all interested individuals to join us in finding solutions and shaping the future direction of the user group. Your insights, expertise, and assistance in making the UG conflict-free and effective are highly valued. Thank you for your continued support and engagement. Best regards, Aishik Rehman Volunteer, Wikimedians of the [?] User Group _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

Hello everyone, I agree with Butch and Gnangarra. We need to solve local conflicts first and then go for broader global collaboration. Volunteers are the fuel of Wikimedia, it's not a wise step to completely ignore volunteers from a particular region and start an affiliate covering those areas. To Ankan and Aishik specifically, Thanks a lot for your response. What you said is completely different from what we are experiencing right now in the local community here in Bangladesh. I'm seeing the local volunteer community including the admin panel being divided into numerous micro-groups and these groups are being engaged in multifaceted conflicts within themselves. In fact, executive members from Wikimedia Bangladesh have also been engaged in heated exchanges with several community members including a few admins in the last few weeks. There are numerous on and private offwiki social group incidents where the community members experienced these. The village pump of bnwiki itself is flooded with recent heated discussions. I'm mentioning Wikimedia Bangladesh here because I, myself have seen them being involved in conflicts with several local organizers. Since the formation of this user group is rooted in the local conflict in Bangladesh that involves Wikimedia Bangladesh also, I would request not to suppress the voice of local volunteers and try to find a solution locally that may involve perspective from experienced global contributors. But please don't flood the global mailing list and it's better to put an end to this user group discussion. Being honest, Aishik is one of the most celebrated organizers in Bangladesh, anyone active here in the local movement would agree that. It is very weird that no one from Wikimedia Bangladesh noticed Aishik's user page and requested them to put down the "Associate Member" status if Aishik is not anyhow formally connected to this chapter. No local contributor would believe that no one from the local chapter noticed Aishik's user page before. The contact persons of this user group are some of the most active organizers of Wikimedia Bangladesh. In fact, they have organized and worked hard for Wikimedia Bangladesh even more than the Executive Committee members, we haven't at least seen the Executive Committee members actively organizing anything in the local community in most cases. Local volunteers can ensure that it is quite unbelievable that the founders of this user group didn't discuss it with Wikimedia Bangladesh. I repeat it's not possible that they didn't discuss it with the local chapter here. There are two possible options. The first one is, the local chapter supported the decision of launching this user group even after knowing that it would create overlapping and conflict. And the second one is, they didn't support and let these people go as they wish (again, knowing that there would be a conflict). Since they are the most active organizers of Wikimedia Bangladesh, it's not impossible that there was a conflict between these two groups - the unstable situation in the local community also supports this possibility. I don't think it's valid to directly tag any concern using words like "fictitious" and "blame on the basis of personal thoughts". There are tons of on and offwiki proofs that may support the idea that these "allegations" against Wikimedia Bangladesh are shared thoughts instead of just personal opinions. But I don't think it would be a good idea to present the evidence here since this is not the main topic in this thread (though it's very much relevant to study the background of the current global situation). The community came to know about an active trust and safety case against four of the bnwiki admins for target harassment from public discussions. In fact, in the bnwiki village pump, it has also surfaced that one or more people from these four admins have close relations with Wikimedia Bangladesh, and the chapter is directly or indirectly involved in the harassment incidents. According to my observation, these harassment incidents were some of the root causes behind the current unstable situation in the local community which has been brought globally via the formation of this user group. Again, I agree with Butch and Gnangarra, we should not clog the global mailing list with local conflict issues and solve the local conflict first. It is better not to consider proceeding with the proposed user group and take some time to know and collaborate with the volunteers from all over the mentioned region, and solve the local complexities locally first. Before launching such an ambitious initiative, our colleagues from Eseap and other regions should be consulted and their opinions should be considered carefully. I hope that this discussion will come to a successful conclusion. Regards, Iftee On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 09:15, Butch Bustria &lt;bustrias(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org

Note: my last mail was caught in moderation queue, I sent it before Aishik's last mail but it got approved after his mail. Iftee On Sat, May 27, 2023, 7:41 PM Aaqib Anjum Aafi &lt;AaqibAnjumAafi(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org… To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave(a)lists.wikimedia.org