Hello Aishik,

I cannot find any evidence that this is a legitimate user group recognized through Affcom process. I also could not find any evidence if you have engaged affiliates of the region and consulted for conflict and overlap. It looks nothing more than a personal endeavour to me.

For your kind information, there are already several user groups and chapters operating in Asian countries including a regional hub in ESEAP. If we need something different for the entire Asia Pacific region, I am sure the affiliates will come together to have consensus and form such organization in the future.

I would like to request AffCom to look into the matter and delete the meta page, so that no misunderstanding or conflict arises out of this.

Regards, Bodhisattwa

On Thu, May 25, 2023, 09:44 Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com wrote:

Dear Aishik,

Kindly consult with Wikimedia Affiliations Committee (AFFCOM). Please perform a valid case study before engaging to this.

There is also the Wikimedia Regional Hubs being discussed within the Movement Strategy. ESEAP is one of them.

Kind regards,

*Butch Bustria* Coordinator East, Southeast Asia and the Pacific

On Thu, May 25, 2023, 11:59 AM Aishik Rehman aishikrehman@gmail.com wrote:

...

Dear all,

We are excited to announce the establishment of Wikimedians of the Asia Pacific User Group. Our goal is to preserve endangered languages, cultures, folklore, and traditional knowledge of the Asia-Pacific region through Wikimedia projects.

We are dedicated to fostering regional connections and supporting local Wikimedia communities across Asia and the Asia-Pacific. Through collaboration, advocacy, and knowledge-sharing, we aim to empower these communities to effectively serve their regions and promote the values of free knowledge, open access, and community engagement.

We invite you to join us in our mission. For more information about our user group, please visit our Meta-Wiki page *¹*.

Thank you for your attention.

Best regards,

Aishik Rehman Volunteer, Wikimedians of the Asia Pacific User Group

¹: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WAP _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

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Dear Bodhisattwa and Butch Bustria,

Thank you for your responses and expressing your concerns regarding the establishment of WAP User Group. I appreciate your input and would like to provide further clarification on the matter.

Firstly, I want to emphasize that we have acknowledged the significance of engaging with the Wikimedia Affiliations Committee (AffCom) and have initiated contact with them to seek guidance and ensure that we align with established processes and protocols. We understand the importance of following the correct procedures and conducting thorough evaluations.

It is crucial to note that at this stage, our user group has not been officially recognized by AffCom. We are currently in the initial stages of establishing our presence and are actively seeking guidance and support from relevant committees to ensure a collaborative and harmonious approach within the Wikimedia ecosystem.

We recognize the existing user groups and chapters operating in Asian countries and understand the need for coordination, consensus, and collaboration with them. Our aim is to complement and work alongside these affiliations, rather than duplicate or create conflicts. We are committed to fostering positive relationships and avoiding any misunderstandings or overlaps.

To provide clarity and transparency, we have shared relevant links to our project page on Meta-Wiki, which outlines our goals, mission, and activities as a potential user group. It is essential to note that the project page serves as a platform to present our intentions and engage in constructive discussions with the community. We are committed to addressing any concerns and ensuring that all perspectives are heard and considered.

We appreciate your concerns and valuable insights and assure you that we are actively engaging with AffCom to seek their guidance and expertise. Our intention is to align ourselves with established processes and work collaboratively with existing affiliations in the region.

We invite you to participate in the ongoing discussions and provide your valuable feedback. We are open to further dialogue and are committed to finding common ground and fostering regional cooperation.

Thank you for your attention and understanding. We look forward to continued engagement and productive discussions.

Best regards, Aishik Rehman

Hello Aishik,

The name of the group suggests that it is a geographical group encompassing entire South Asia and ESEAP region which overlaps with all the geographical affiliates of the region including the ESEAP hub. Whether this group tries to be complimentary or not, the group directly comes into conflict with all the affiliates of the region w.r.t. operating area by creating parallel structure in the region and dividing our valuable workforce, which we cannot afford.

The core members of the group is comprised of volunteers from Bangladesh only, which already have a chapter there. There are almost no representations from the remaining part of Asia and hence the ambition to become a representative organization of such a large geographical area makes no sense.

Majority of the affiliates of the region and ESEAP hub were created after long discussions within the community for months, if not years. On the contrary, this group had not engaged in any conversation with the existing geographical affiliates of the region to understand if they are already working with the same vision of this group and if the existence of it as an official affiliate is needed at all.

I think, if the core members of the group can engage with their local affiliate i.e. Wikimedia Bangladesh chapter to run their projects together with them without creating a parallel affiliate, that would be much better. I am sure, being a decentralized organization and with good community connection and support, our friends in Wikimedia Bangladesh will be more than happy to encourage your vision of work and find ways to accommodate your plans.

I also hope, AffCom will consult all the geographical affiliates of the vast Asian region, which this group likes to cover, before coming to any conclusion to recognize this group as an affiliate. The process to create user groups were made loose and lax for some good reasons, but there needs to be a well-written policy to assess overlaps and conflicts with existing structures before submitting application of recognition.

Regards, Bodhisattwa

On Thu, May 25, 2023, 20:03 Aishik Rehman aishikrehman@gmail.com wrote:

Dear Bodhisattwa and Butch Bustria,

Thank you for your responses and expressing your concerns regarding the establishment of WAP User Group. I appreciate your input and would like to provide further clarification on the matter.

Firstly, I want to emphasize that we have acknowledged the significance of engaging with the Wikimedia Affiliations Committee (AffCom) and have initiated contact with them to seek guidance and ensure that we align with established processes and protocols. We understand the importance of following the correct procedures and conducting thorough evaluations.

It is crucial to note that at this stage, our user group has not been officially recognized by AffCom. We are currently in the initial stages of establishing our presence and are actively seeking guidance and support from relevant committees to ensure a collaborative and harmonious approach within the Wikimedia ecosystem.

We recognize the existing user groups and chapters operating in Asian countries and understand the need for coordination, consensus, and collaboration with them. Our aim is to complement and work alongside these affiliations, rather than duplicate or create conflicts. We are committed to fostering positive relationships and avoiding any misunderstandings or overlaps.

To provide clarity and transparency, we have shared relevant links to our project page on Meta-Wiki, which outlines our goals, mission, and activities as a potential user group. It is essential to note that the project page serves as a platform to present our intentions and engage in constructive discussions with the community. We are committed to addressing any concerns and ensuring that all perspectives are heard and considered.

We appreciate your concerns and valuable insights and assure you that we are actively engaging with AffCom to seek their guidance and expertise. Our intention is to align ourselves with established processes and work collaboratively with existing affiliations in the region.

We invite you to participate in the ongoing discussions and provide your valuable feedback. We are open to further dialogue and are committed to finding common ground and fostering regional cooperation.

Thank you for your attention and understanding. We look forward to continued engagement and productive discussions.

Best regards, Aishik Rehman _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

To our Bangla Wikimedians who initiated this tensive plan,

I humbly suggest that rather than you set an ambition of going further east, you work on capacitating collaborating and helping the Wikimedia communities of Central Asia, Bhutan, Maldives, Pakistan, Afghanistan and even the islands of the Indian Ocean. These are the communities left without a hub. You work on a unique name, join in Iran and I personally help you on this.

But please don't attempt to cross ESEAP.

Kind regards,

*Butch Bustria* Wikimedia East, South East Asia and the Pacific

On Fri, May 26, 2023, 2:10 AM Mrb Rafi mrbrafi1971@gmail.com wrote:

Well, this is strange and interesting at the same time. There is a lot going on inside South Asian communities that have been hidden from the world and have started to surface now.

I have made an effort to analyze and document my observations regarding the "WAP UG" and have outlined them in the following list:

1. The primary concern is undoubtedly the non-compliance of this UG with

the standard Affcom procedures, indicating either a lack of capacity or willingness to adhere to the requisite rules for the initiation of a UG.

2. The home wiki for all three contact persons listed on the meta page

happens to be bnwiki. Notably, two of them are part of the bnwiki admin panel, which comprises a total of 13 editors. bnwiki serves as the home wiki for six out of the eight members affiliated with this UG also.

3. One of the three contact persons has explicitly stated on their user

page that they are an associate member of Wikimedia Bangladesh. Furthermore, the other two individuals have close affiliations with the local chapter in Bangladesh. Their names can be found in the CoT https://w.wiki/5ZZo for the implementation of the local Wikimania in 2022. Those of us involved in the local movement, including myself, are aware that these three individuals constitute a significant portion of the capable workforce within Wikimedia Bangladesh. It is very unlikely that the local chapter's three most active and leading organizers would make such a substantial leap without internal discussions within Wikimedia Bangladesh, and it is puzzling that the chapter appears to be unaware of this. It is worth noting that there are allegations of off-wiki harassment against at least one of these three UAP UG contact persons. Additionally, Wikimedia Bangladesh is facing backlash within the local community.

4. Operating an organization without formal recognition from Affcom does

not present a fundamental obstacle. I, myself, am leading two non-affiliate organized groups and believe that these non-affiliate groups are essential to make the movement more distributed and transparent. But, to a lot of people, getting recognized as affiliate leaders is rewarding enough which may set unrealistic expectations. Personally, I am not a big fan of the affiliate structure based on my observations in the local movement, as they sometimes prioritize political territoriality over productive endeavors. From my experience, it appears that affiliates function as the sole authority within a designated territory determined by Affcom, and they are prepared to safeguard their sovereignty over that territory (including the onwiki spaces covered by the language or culture of the territory) at any cost. Regarding Bodhisattwa's expectations, it is improbable that Wikimedia Bangladesh, "being a decentralized organization and with good community connection and support", would extend assistance to other organizations within their territory. Unfortunately, this local affiliate has a troubling history of suppressing emerging leadership in order to maintain control over its perceived "territory."

5. I am concerned that the emergence of this UG is an inevitable outcome

of long-standing tensions that have remained concealed within the region for decades. It's more of what we can see with the naked eye. The South Asian community has complex dynamics that are tricky to figure out. There are currently several conflicting parties here without anyone to mediate. WMF couldn't solve the legal complexities of sending grants here even after working for more than a decade. The conflict was previously managed due to the professional support extended by WMF in recent years. But WMF started destroying that capacity themselves through the so-called "budget and staff cuts" recently. There is literally no expert in the WMF with in-depth knowledge about the socio-political realities of this region, which is essential for mediating between these confronting parties and continuing the resource flow and professional support here. Consequently, conflict appears to be unavoidable.

I have made an attempt to articulate some of the shared perspectives held by many local volunteers that often remain unvoiced on the global stage, where they need to be heard. You may understand that I won't be able to present everything, but I have tried my best while staying within the boundary that preserves my safety. Hope it helps to understand the depth of the situation.

Best, Rafi _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

Hello everyone,

I would like to add a few points with respect to this discussion since there are lots of undermining "thoughts".

1. Firstly, there is no such thing called an 'associate member' in the bylaws of Wikimedia Bangladesh. One can easily become a supporting/regular member following the chapter's rules and regulations. Secondly, anyone with an aligned interest in the Wiki movement can work with an affiliate or the affiliate can also invite someone to work with them. That doesn't mean the volunteers can't take their own decisions. To clarify, they don't have the obligation to inform the chapter at all. I personally can remember conducting workshops even before becoming a member of the chapter. Anyway, I can confirm that there was no such discussion within the chapter, and I see nothing puzzling here. Lastly, bringing a sensitive issue like harassment to a public mailing list on the basis of an "allegation", is not expected at all. None has the ground to create such an image of any volunteers because of an "allegation" only. I would encourage everyone not to escalate the discussion in another direction and keep it friendly.

2. "Wikimedia Bangladesh is facing backlash within the local community." or "This local affiliate has a troubling history of suppressing emerging leadership in order to maintain control over its perceived "territory." " are some fictitious statements, to blame on the basis of personal thoughts. We have always worked with the community, and hope to do that in the future as well. Although I would concentrate on commenting on the relevant things in this thread, I can't restrict myself from saying that I, who joined the chapter in 2016 as a supporting member, am proof of whether the chapter encourages new people to lead or not.

3. I personally do believe that creating a UG with this name without any discussion with the mentioned region's existing groups is confusing. I agree with what Butch and Bodhisattwa have already pointed out.

Best, Ankan

On Fri, May 26, 2023 at 12:10 AM Mrb Rafi mrbrafi1971@gmail.com wrote:

Well, this is strange and interesting at the same time. There is a lot going on inside South Asian communities that have been hidden from the world and have started to surface now.

I have made an effort to analyze and document my observations regarding the "WAP UG" and have outlined them in the following list:

1. The primary concern is undoubtedly the non-compliance of this UG with

the standard Affcom procedures, indicating either a lack of capacity or willingness to adhere to the requisite rules for the initiation of a UG.

2. The home wiki for all three contact persons listed on the meta page

happens to be bnwiki. Notably, two of them are part of the bnwiki admin panel, which comprises a total of 13 editors. bnwiki serves as the home wiki for six out of the eight members affiliated with this UG also.

3. One of the three contact persons has explicitly stated on their user

page that they are an associate member of Wikimedia Bangladesh. Furthermore, the other two individuals have close affiliations with the local chapter in Bangladesh. Their names can be found in the CoT https://w.wiki/5ZZo for the implementation of the local Wikimania in 2022. Those of us involved in the local movement, including myself, are aware that these three individuals constitute a significant portion of the capable workforce within Wikimedia Bangladesh. It is very unlikely that the local chapter's three most active and leading organizers would make such a substantial leap without internal discussions within Wikimedia Bangladesh, and it is puzzling that the chapter appears to be unaware of this. It is worth noting that there are allegations of off-wiki harassment against at least one of these three UAP UG contact persons. Additionally, Wikimedia Bangladesh is facing backlash within the local community.

4. Operating an organization without formal recognition from Affcom does

not present a fundamental obstacle. I, myself, am leading two non-affiliate organized groups and believe that these non-affiliate groups are essential to make the movement more distributed and transparent. But, to a lot of people, getting recognized as affiliate leaders is rewarding enough which may set unrealistic expectations. Personally, I am not a big fan of the affiliate structure based on my observations in the local movement, as they sometimes prioritize political territoriality over productive endeavors. From my experience, it appears that affiliates function as the sole authority within a designated territory determined by Affcom, and they are prepared to safeguard their sovereignty over that territory (including the onwiki spaces covered by the language or culture of the territory) at any cost. Regarding Bodhisattwa's expectations, it is improbable that Wikimedia Bangladesh, "being a decentralized organization and with good community connection and support", would extend assistance to other organizations within their territory. Unfortunately, this local affiliate has a troubling history of suppressing emerging leadership in order to maintain control over its perceived "territory."

5. I am concerned that the emergence of this UG is an inevitable outcome

of long-standing tensions that have remained concealed within the region for decades. It's more of what we can see with the naked eye. The South Asian community has complex dynamics that are tricky to figure out. There are currently several conflicting parties here without anyone to mediate. WMF couldn't solve the legal complexities of sending grants here even after working for more than a decade. The conflict was previously managed due to the professional support extended by WMF in recent years. But WMF started destroying that capacity themselves through the so-called "budget and staff cuts" recently. There is literally no expert in the WMF with in-depth knowledge about the socio-political realities of this region, which is essential for mediating between these confronting parties and continuing the resource flow and professional support here. Consequently, conflict appears to be unavoidable.

I have made an attempt to articulate some of the shared perspectives held by many local volunteers that often remain unvoiced on the global stage, where they need to be heard. You may understand that I won't be able to present everything, but I have tried my best while staying within the boundary that preserves my safety. Hope it helps to understand the depth of the situation.

Best, Rafi _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

To everyone,

Thank you for your continued engagement and valuable feedback regarding the establishment of the UG. We have carefully considered the concerns raised regarding the name and the inclusion of the ESEAP region. We are committed to addressing these issues and ensuring a conflict-free and effective user group.

Regarding the name, we understand the importance of avoiding possible conflicts and overlaps. We are open to considering a non-geographical name that better represents the collaborative nature of our user group. We welcome suggestions and input from the community in this regard.

In terms of the ESEAP region, we recognize the need for a balanced approach. We are also open to excluding the region if it helps mitigate conflicts and ensures effective collaboration. We seek serious advice and assistance from those with experience and expertise to help us navigate these considerations.

To Rafi, we appreciate your input, but we want to clarify that we have no links or conflicts with Wikimedia Bangladesh. Our focus is on building a user group that complements and collaborates with existing affiliates. Your concerns regarding Wikimedia Bangladesh are not relevant to the establishment and functioning of the WAP UG.

We invite all interested individuals to join us in finding solutions and shaping the future direction of the user group. Your insights, expertise, and assistance in making the UG conflict-free and effective are highly valued.

Thank you for your continued support and engagement.

Best regards, Aishik Rehman Volunteer, Wikimedians of the [?] User Group

Hey Aishik,

The first action you need to make is to move the meta wiki page to Draft page and find a working name. Maybe *Wikipedia Project West and Central Asia.*

ESEAP started as ESEA in 2014 during Wikimania London 2014 (Source: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ESEA_Meetup/MeetingMinutes) . I am not there as I was just starting my work in Singapore. The concept of a regional collaboration started 9 years ago when multiple countries agree to work on something, not one part of a country, not two countries, but four countries. Then on, all blood, sweat and tears to reach a consensus of 18 Wikimedia communities (plus 15 more we have to explore in the Pacific islands) to come together and reach an agreement to formally build an ESEAP regional hub.

We are open to collaboration but please start a bold confidence building measure to earn our trust.

To Movement Charter Drafting Committee,

Despite absence of an ESEAP person to the large committee, we humbly suggest that you finally settle the definition of user groups, advocacy groups, alliance groups, online project groups and all others to avoid any ambiguity as it creates confusion to partners and general public; unfair competition and tension amongst Wikimedians. We originally have charters before but now the terminology of a user group became insanely disorganized. Once it is drafted, it will be voted upon the general community anyways.

To Everyone,

The theme of Wikimania 2023 is Diversity, Collaboration, Future. We aim this year's event be another milestone for people to meet and do a similar experience Wikimedians in 2014 to form regional and thematic collaborations. We respect diversity but we discourage highly divisive discussions.

Kind regards,

*Butch Bustria* Wikimedia East, South East Asia and the Pacific

On Sat, May 27, 2023, 7:26 AM Aishik Rehman aishikrehman@gmail.com wrote:

To everyone,

Thank you for your continued engagement and valuable feedback regarding the establishment of the UG. We have carefully considered the concerns raised regarding the name and the inclusion of the ESEAP region. We are committed to addressing these issues and ensuring a conflict-free and effective user group.

Regarding the name, we understand the importance of avoiding possible conflicts and overlaps. We are open to considering a non-geographical name that better represents the collaborative nature of our user group. We welcome suggestions and input from the community in this regard.

In terms of the ESEAP region, we recognize the need for a balanced approach. We are also open to excluding the region if it helps mitigate conflicts and ensures effective collaboration. We seek serious advice and assistance from those with experience and expertise to help us navigate these considerations.

To Rafi, we appreciate your input, but we want to clarify that we have no links or conflicts with Wikimedia Bangladesh. Our focus is on building a user group that complements and collaborates with existing affiliates. Your concerns regarding Wikimedia Bangladesh are not relevant to the establishment and functioning of the WAP UG.

We invite all interested individuals to join us in finding solutions and shaping the future direction of the user group. Your insights, expertise, and assistance in making the UG conflict-free and effective are highly valued.

Thank you for your continued support and engagement.

Best regards, Aishik Rehman Volunteer, Wikimedians of the [?] User Group _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

Dear Iftee ,

Thank you for your email. I would like to clarify that Wikimedia Bangladesh had no involvement in the formation of this group. Aishik has repeatedly confirmed this fact, so I'm not sure why you continue to mention Wikimedia Bangladesh. It's important not to confuse this with any personal conflicts that the organization may have with you or your team.

Furthermore, it should be noted that once a person works with one organization, there are no restrictions preventing them from working with another user group or organization in the future. In this case, they may have chosen to collaborate with the new team and types of work, and it is their decision. Please refrain from fabricating stories about conflicts between them.

I want to reiterate that Wikimedia Bangladesh played no part in the establishment of this team, and discussions regarding their involvement are irrelevant in this context.

Lastly, it has already been stated that the group will not be progressing further. Therefore, I kindly request that close this thread.

Best, Shakil

On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 7:41 PM Iftekhar Hossain Iftee < i.h.iftee71@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I agree with Butch and Gnangarra. We need to solve local conflicts first and then go for broader global collaboration. Volunteers are the fuel of Wikimedia, it's not a wise step to completely ignore volunteers from a particular region and start an affiliate covering those areas.

To Ankan and Aishik specifically, Thanks a lot for your response. What you said is completely different from what we are experiencing right now in the local community here in Bangladesh. I'm seeing the local volunteer community including the admin panel being divided into numerous micro-groups and these groups are being engaged in multifaceted conflicts within themselves. In fact, executive members from Wikimedia Bangladesh have also been engaged in heated exchanges with several community members including a few admins in the last few weeks. There are numerous on and private offwiki social group incidents where the community members experienced these. The village pump of bnwiki itself is flooded with recent heated discussions. I'm mentioning Wikimedia Bangladesh here because I, myself have seen them being involved in conflicts with several local organizers. Since the formation of this user group is rooted in the local conflict in Bangladesh that involves Wikimedia Bangladesh also, I would request not to suppress the voice of local volunteers and try to find a solution locally that may involve perspective from experienced global contributors. But please don't flood the global mailing list and it's better to put an end to this user group discussion.

Being honest, Aishik is one of the most celebrated organizers in Bangladesh, anyone active here in the local movement would agree that. It is very weird that no one from Wikimedia Bangladesh noticed Aishik's user page and requested them to put down the "Associate Member" status if Aishik is not anyhow formally connected to this chapter. No local contributor would believe that no one from the local chapter noticed Aishik's user page before.

The contact persons of this user group are some of the most active organizers of Wikimedia Bangladesh. In fact, they have organized and worked hard for Wikimedia Bangladesh even more than the Executive Committee members, we haven't at least seen the Executive Committee members actively organizing anything in the local community in most cases. Local volunteers can ensure that it is quite unbelievable that the founders of this user group didn't discuss it with Wikimedia Bangladesh. I repeat it's not possible that they didn't discuss it with the local chapter here. There are two possible options. The first one is, the local chapter supported the decision of launching this user group even after knowing that it would create overlapping and conflict. And the second one is, they didn't support and let these people go as they wish (again, knowing that there would be a conflict). Since they are the most active organizers of Wikimedia Bangladesh, it's not impossible that there was a conflict between these two groups - the unstable situation in the local community also supports this possibility.

I don't think it's valid to directly tag any concern using words like "fictitious" and "blame on the basis of personal thoughts". There are tons of on and offwiki proofs that may support the idea that these "allegations" against Wikimedia Bangladesh are shared thoughts instead of just personal opinions. But I don't think it would be a good idea to present the evidence here since this is not the main topic in this thread (though it's very much relevant to study the background of the current global situation). The community came to know about an active trust and safety case against four of the bnwiki admins for target harassment from public discussions. In fact, in the bnwiki village pump, it has also surfaced that one or more people from these four admins have close relations with Wikimedia Bangladesh, and the chapter is directly or indirectly involved in the harassment incidents. According to my observation, these harassment incidents were some of the root causes behind the current unstable situation in the local community which has been brought globally via the formation of this user group.

Again, I agree with Butch and Gnangarra, we should not clog the global mailing list with local conflict issues and solve the local conflict first. It is better not to consider proceeding with the proposed user group and take some time to know and collaborate with the volunteers from all over the mentioned region, and solve the local complexities locally first. Before launching such an ambitious initiative, our colleagues from Eseap and other regions should be consulted and their opinions should be considered carefully. I hope that this discussion will come to a successful conclusion.

Regards, Iftee

On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 09:15, Butch Bustria bustrias@gmail.com wrote:

...

Hey Aishik,

The first action you need to make is to move the meta wiki page to Draft page and find a working name. Maybe *Wikipedia Project West and Central Asia.*

ESEAP started as ESEA in 2014 during Wikimania London 2014 (Source: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/ESEA_Meetup/MeetingMinutes) . I am not there as I was just starting my work in Singapore. The concept of a regional collaboration started 9 years ago when multiple countries agree to work on something, not one part of a country, not two countries, but four countries. Then on, all blood, sweat and tears to reach a consensus of 18 Wikimedia communities (plus 15 more we have to explore in the Pacific islands) to come together and reach an agreement to formally build an ESEAP regional hub.

We are open to collaboration but please start a bold confidence building measure to earn our trust.

To Movement Charter Drafting Committee,

Despite absence of an ESEAP person to the large committee, we humbly suggest that you finally settle the definition of user groups, advocacy groups, alliance groups, online project groups and all others to avoid any ambiguity as it creates confusion to partners and general public; unfair competition and tension amongst Wikimedians. We originally have charters before but now the terminology of a user group became insanely disorganized. Once it is drafted, it will be voted upon the general community anyways.

To Everyone,

The theme of Wikimania 2023 is Diversity, Collaboration, Future. We aim this year's event be another milestone for people to meet and do a similar experience Wikimedians in 2014 to form regional and thematic collaborations. We respect diversity but we discourage highly divisive discussions.

Kind regards,

*Butch Bustria* Wikimedia East, South East Asia and the Pacific

On Sat, May 27, 2023, 7:26 AM Aishik Rehman aishikrehman@gmail.com wrote:

...

To everyone,

Thank you for your continued engagement and valuable feedback regarding the establishment of the UG. We have carefully considered the concerns raised regarding the name and the inclusion of the ESEAP region. We are committed to addressing these issues and ensuring a conflict-free and effective user group.

Regarding the name, we understand the importance of avoiding possible conflicts and overlaps. We are open to considering a non-geographical name that better represents the collaborative nature of our user group. We welcome suggestions and input from the community in this regard.

In terms of the ESEAP region, we recognize the need for a balanced approach. We are also open to excluding the region if it helps mitigate conflicts and ensures effective collaboration. We seek serious advice and assistance from those with experience and expertise to help us navigate these considerations.

To Rafi, we appreciate your input, but we want to clarify that we have no links or conflicts with Wikimedia Bangladesh. Our focus is on building a user group that complements and collaborates with existing affiliates. Your concerns regarding Wikimedia Bangladesh are not relevant to the establishment and functioning of the WAP UG.

We invite all interested individuals to join us in finding solutions and shaping the future direction of the user group. Your insights, expertise, and assistance in making the UG conflict-free and effective are highly valued.

Thank you for your continued support and engagement.

Best regards, Aishik Rehman Volunteer, Wikimedians of the [?] User Group _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

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I am not sure where is the disappointing stuff in this thread. You are free to start a usergroup and work under an umbrella which adds more to the diversity of the movement, and I suppose it should, in your case, given you plenty of valuable contributions. However, calling helpful and friendly suggestions of others on certain errors that you made as "something unconstructive" is just being dishonest. Most of the comments on this thread are telling you constructively to engage with the larger community, for instance, with regards to the name of the usergroup. I run a thematic usergroup and I had to go through months of AffCom review: this thing overlaps this thing and so on, even though I had not used any such name or overlapped seriously with any specific community. However, the wider community groups in India where consulted by AffCom before they approved my usergroup application.

The reason of me telling this to you is that most of the people commenting here are sharing their experiences and telling you what should be the correct step. You should invite all the communities that are in the region with which the name overlaps and have their comments heard, and if that doesn't reach any conclusion, you can opt for a different name that could perhaps serve your ideas and goals better.

I hope this makes some sense.

I want to write with the spirit that I respect the co-founders of the Wikimedians of the Asia Pacific User Group (WAPAC) as individual volunteer fellow Wikimedians. Still, I strongly disagree with creating this user group. It seems like forming a new user group where three co-founders have some conflict with Wikimedia Bangladesh. But instead of finding ways to resolve those conflicts, they, all from Bangladesh, started a parallel user group and called it Wikimedians of the Asia Pacific User Group.

For context, the Asia-Pacific region includes over 45 economies and is home to 60% of the world's population that speaks over 2,000 languages. I highly doubt that forming a user group due to unsolved interpersonal conflicts is a good idea. There is, of course, a lack of conversations with communities of this large region and a lack of regional representation. Not to mention, ESEAP, the organiser of Wikimania this year, had no clue. There are many ways to solve interpersonal conflicts, but creating a user group without a real reason is not one.

Subhashish

On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 3:00 PM Iftekhar Hossain Iftee < i.h.iftee71@gmail.com> wrote:

Note: my last mail was caught in moderation queue, I sent it before Aishik's last mail but it got approved after his mail.

Iftee

On Sat, May 27, 2023, 7:41 PM Aaqib Anjum Aafi AaqibAnjumAafi@gmail.com wrote:

...

I am not sure where is the disappointing stuff in this thread. You are free to start a usergroup and work under an umbrella which adds more to the diversity of the movement, and I suppose it should, in your case, given you plenty of valuable contributions. However, calling helpful and friendly suggestions of others on certain errors that you made as "something unconstructive" is just being dishonest. Most of the comments on this thread are telling you constructively to engage with the larger community, for instance, with regards to the name of the usergroup. I run a thematic usergroup and I had to go through months of AffCom review: this thing overlaps this thing and so on, even though I had not used any such name or overlapped seriously with any specific community. However, the wider community groups in India where consulted by AffCom before they approved my usergroup application.

The reason of me telling this to you is that most of the people commenting here are sharing their experiences and telling you what should be the correct step. You should invite all the communities that are in the region with which the name overlaps and have their comments heard, and if that doesn't reach any conclusion, you can opt for a different name that could perhaps serve your ideas and goals better.

I hope this makes some sense. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l Public archives at https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/... To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org

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