Sorry for cross-posting this, but as Cbrown pointed out: not everybody reads the logo page on Meta.
Anyway:
Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida, the Swedish chapter, are going to make a 3D version of the Wikipedia logo, a meter in diameter. But this means that we need to know what is on the puzzle pieces on the back of the globe. Which symbols are on the back?
It seems that we should probably have some official answer to this - or we will have to improvise ourselves. This question needs to be answered by September, at the very latest, when we are going to show the globe in front of a 100 000 visitors of the Gothenburg Book Fair.
I know of at least one attempt to make puzzle globes for real, namely in Taiwan, see picture herehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_116.jpg, but it is not nearly good enough we feel. (Sorry, you who created it.)
Best wishes,
I know of at least one attempt to make puzzle globes for real, namely in Taiwan, see picture herehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_dungodung_116.jpg, but it is not nearly good enough we feel. (Sorry, you who created it.)
as far as I recall, the Taiwan ball has on its back the logos of the WikiMedia projects as well as the logos of the sponsors of Wikimania 2007. I personally think have the logos of our projects on the back is quite good and maybe that's enough to take the place?
Ting
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Lennart Guldbrandsson wikihannibal@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for cross-posting this, but as Cbrown pointed out: not everybody reads the logo page on Meta.
Anyway:
Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida, the Swedish chapter, are going to make a 3D version of the Wikipedia logo, a meter in diameter. But this means that we need to know what is on the puzzle pieces on the back of the globe. Which symbols are on the back?
It seems that we should probably have some official answer to this - or we will have to improvise ourselves.
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
Yeah, this is the backside of the Taiwan-ball: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:MR_Wikimania_1-07.jpg
The project logos are on the northpol and the sponsor-logos on the south. I still think the project logos would be nice. :-P Some other suggestion?
Ting
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de wrote:
Yeah, this is the backside of the Taiwan-ball: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:MR_Wikimania_1-07.jpg
The project logos are on the northpol and the sponsor-logos on the south. I still think the project logos would be nice. :-P Some other suggestion?
See also the mini-globe that each attendee got at Wikimania 2007; it is slightly different from the big one:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_puzzle_ball.jpg
The little gift ball to every attendee is just too small to put all logos of sponsors on it. Although several of them expressed that they want their logo on the gift puzzle ball, but we rejected.
:)
Titan
2008/7/22 Guillaume Paumier guillom.pom@gmail.com:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de wrote:
Yeah, this is the backside of the Taiwan-ball: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:MR_Wikimania_1-07.jpg
The project logos are on the northpol and the sponsor-logos on the south.
I still think the project logos would be nice. :-P Some other suggestion?
See also the mini-globe that each attendee got at Wikimania 2007; it is slightly different from the big one:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_2007_puzzle_ball.jpg
-- Guillaume Paumier [[m:User:guillom]] « Quand on veut plaire dans le monde, il faut se résoudre à se laisser apprendre beaucoup de choses qu'on sait par des gens qui les ignorent. » Nicolas de Chamfort. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
2008/7/22 Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de:
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
Yeah, this is the backside of the Taiwan-ball: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:MR_Wikimania_1-07.jpg
The project logos are on the northpol and the sponsor-logos on the south. I still think the project logos would be nice. :-P Some other suggestion?
Ting
Wouldn't it be better to continue symbols from different alphabets around the surface of the sphere? It might be good for the community to come up with or approve a complete 3D version of the Wikipedia globe. We can produce a 3D prototype using CAD software.
As to which symbols: does the logo at present lack symbols from any major alphabet? It might be a good opportunity to make our logo better represent the communities Wikipedia includes.
Wouldn't it be better to continue symbols from different alphabets around the surface of the sphere? It might be good for the community to come up with or approve a complete 3D version of the Wikipedia globe. We can produce a 3D prototype using CAD software.
As to which symbols: does the logo at present lack symbols from any major alphabet? It might be a good opportunity to make our logo better represent the communities Wikipedia includes.
-- Oldak Quill (oldakquill@gmail.com)
I just realized that we are talking about the Wikipedia-logo, and not the WikiMedia-logo. So to put the other logos on its back is not such a good ideal (though maybe as small symbols on the south pole just to signal their relations?).
Do anyone know which writing systems we already have on the logo?
Ting
Hoi, PLEASE have one of the characters be one in SignWriting.. SignWriting allows you to write any of the many sign languages... I would like to include the "thank you" sign in American Sign Language... NB SignWriting is recognised in the ISO 15924 Sgnw. There is a request for a Wikipedia in American Sign Language..
The ASL "thank you" sign can be found on the last page of my presentation at Wikimania 2008.
Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Oldak Quill oldakquill@gmail.com wrote:
2008/7/22 Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de:
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
Yeah, this is the backside of the Taiwan-ball: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:MR_Wikimania_1-07.jpg
The project logos are on the northpol and the sponsor-logos on the south.
I still think the project logos would be nice. :-P Some other suggestion?
Ting
Wouldn't it be better to continue symbols from different alphabets around the surface of the sphere? It might be good for the community to come up with or approve a complete 3D version of the Wikipedia globe. We can produce a 3D prototype using CAD software.
As to which symbols: does the logo at present lack symbols from any major alphabet? It might be a good opportunity to make our logo better represent the communities Wikipedia includes.
-- Oldak Quill (oldakquill@gmail.com) _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, PLEASE have one of the characters be one in SignWriting.. SignWriting allows you to write any of the many sign languages... I would like to include the "thank you" sign in American Sign Language... NB SignWriting is recognised in the ISO 15924 Sgnw. There is a request for a Wikipedia in American Sign Language..
The ASL "thank you" sign can be found on the last page of my presentation at Wikimania 2008.
I second this request. However, I would like to hear what the language subcom has to say about the issue. It seems like it would cause hurt feelings and mixed messages if we include SignWriting on the logo but do not approve the SignWriting wikipedia.
I dont mean to put the languages subcom on the spot here, but I hope they understand my reservations.
--Andrew Whitworth
Hoi, The language committee would like to approve this request. Sign languages are recognised as languages by the ISO. There are only technical obstacles that prevent the creation of an ase.wikipedia.org These are things that can be solved one way or another.
NB When this is the time that we define what is on the back of the Wikipedia globe, excluding SingWriting now means that it is excluded for ever. Thanks, GerardM
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Andrew Whitworth wknight8111@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, PLEASE have one of the characters be one in SignWriting.. SignWriting
allows
you to write any of the many sign languages... I would like to include
the
"thank you" sign in American Sign Language... NB SignWriting is
recognised
in the ISO 15924 Sgnw. There is a request for a Wikipedia in American
Sign
Language..
The ASL "thank you" sign can be found on the last page of my presentation
at
Wikimania 2008.
I second this request. However, I would like to hear what the language subcom has to say about the issue. It seems like it would cause hurt feelings and mixed messages if we include SignWriting on the logo but do not approve the SignWriting wikipedia.
I dont mean to put the languages subcom on the spot here, but I hope they understand my reservations.
--Andrew Whitworth
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
NB When this is the time that we define what is on the back of the Wikipedia globe, excluding SingWriting now means that it is excluded for ever.
I support your suggestion, but would not see such a dramatic symbolism in this. Actually I am not sure that we are really discussion an expansion of the current logo in three dimensions (though I would also support such a move).
Ting.
2008/7/22 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, PLEASE have one of the characters be one in SignWriting.. SignWriting allows you to write any of the many sign languages... I would like to include the "thank you" sign in American Sign Language...
No. The letters on the globe roughly equate to "w" or "wi"
In any case there are quite a number of sign languages around but their speaker numbers are fairly low thus it would be unreasonable to give it priority over any alphabet used by a language with more than 3 million speakers.
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:37 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
No. The letters on the globe roughly equate to "w" or "wi"
The Hebrew letter is a resh ("R" sound), and the Greek one is a capital omega with smooth breathing (in ancient Greek a long "O" sound, today a long "I" sound). Doing a little research, the Cyrillic is a "Y" sound. The Japanese is the modern katakana representation of "wi". The Chinese character I have no idea how to look up, but apparently it means "ancestor". I don't recognize the writing system that the one below it represents. The rest are at an angle and I can't even make out their shapes properly.
But anyway, the letters certainly don't all represent "w" sounds. The Hebrew should be a vav or double-vav, if that were the case. The closest equivalents in both Greek and Cyrillic (neither of which has a "W" sound, I'm pretty sure) apparently both look exactly like a capital B, admittedly, at least to judge by their Wikipedias' names, so their current versions might be the most suitable if that were the goal. But I don't think that the goal was specifically to make them "W" sounds.
Just my 2 cents, since we had experienced similar discussion last year in Wikimania 2007.
First of all, for the Chinese character, though it did look like the word "ancestor" in Chinese but the shape is in fact a little bit different.
The character on logo is 10 stroke (1) but the character for ancestor is 9 stroke (2). The meaning of (1) is good or beautiful (it seems also the name of a county in ancient China) while (2) is ancestor.
(1) http://www.chinese-tools.com/jdd/public/char/9000/8534.gif (2) http://www.chinese-tools.com/jdd/public/char/9000/8043.gif
And (1) is rarely used today compares to (2), either from personal experience or according to google (191,000 vs 61,600,000).
Though most of us thought it might be a beautiful mistake that the original designer used the wrong character on logo, we could not confirm that since it seems no one knows who was the designer. So we stick on the original design.
What I want to say is that, just like Guillaume Paumier mentioned, there'll be no official answer for this question. I also think there's no such thing as the correct version, just like the articles on wikipedia, the logo came from the community and should follow the same spirit, which means it should be "editable" or "evolutionary".
On the other hand, consider the fact that most people are familiar with the original logo, I think it has done pretty well for it's purpose. A 3D version is good but it should do more than just identification? then we might need to discuss about the primary reason about why we need a 3D version?
For instance, the wiki-ball in Wikimania 2007 was served as souvenir, it made us easier to design the "dark side" of the ball (the point was entertaining :P). However, if we want to make an "official" 3D design of the logo, perhaps we could do it the community way (the whole vote, discuss or even committee things)? just an idea.
BTW, if I remember correctly, the logo was not exactly round but a little but ellipse. :P
Best Regards,
Tzu-Chiang
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Simetrical <Simetrical+wikilist@gmail.comSimetrical%2Bwikilist@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:37 PM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
No. The letters on the globe roughly equate to "w" or "wi"
The Hebrew letter is a resh ("R" sound), and the Greek one is a capital omega with smooth breathing (in ancient Greek a long "O" sound, today a long "I" sound). Doing a little research, the Cyrillic is a "Y" sound. The Japanese is the modern katakana representation of "wi". The Chinese character I have no idea how to look up, but apparently it means "ancestor". I don't recognize the writing system that the one below it represents. The rest are at an angle and I can't even make out their shapes properly.
But anyway, the letters certainly don't all represent "w" sounds. The Hebrew should be a vav or double-vav, if that were the case. The closest equivalents in both Greek and Cyrillic (neither of which has a "W" sound, I'm pretty sure) apparently both look exactly like a capital B, admittedly, at least to judge by their Wikipedias' names, so their current versions might be the most suitable if that were the goal. But I don't think that the goal was specifically to make them "W" sounds.
I think so too. the W in Arabic would be a waw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_%28letter%29 not a yeh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yodh.
Guillaume Paumier wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Lennart Guldbrandsson wikihannibal@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for cross-posting this, but as Cbrown pointed out: not everybody reads the logo page on Meta.
Anyway:
Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida, the Swedish chapter, are going to make a 3D version of the Wikipedia logo, a meter in diameter. But this means that we need to know what is on the puzzle pieces on the back of the globe. Which symbols are on the back?
It seems that we should probably have some official answer to this - or we will have to improvise ourselves.
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
I would guess that the desire for an "official" answer has more to do with simply going ahead. Since the project names and logos are in a sense owned by the Wikimedia Foundation as trademarks, it would be nice to have derivatives of them properly cleared. Please ask Sue or Mike Godwin, but I don't expect it should be a big concern to have chapters doing something like this.
As for what actually goes there, since the original concept came out of the community, it makes sense to me for the community to be the one to extend it. Whether that's more language characters, project logos, or something else is up to them, and may depend on what it's for. I can see that sponsor logos could fit in the context of an event with those sponsors, but it wouldn't be appropriate elsewhere. So anyone can come up with an idea that fits their needs. We don't need a definitive 3D version, I don't anticipate changing the "official" logo from the two-dimensional one anytime soon.
--Michael Snow
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Michael Snow wikipedia@verizon.net wrote:
We don't need a definitive 3D version, I don't anticipate changing the "official" logo from the two-dimensional one anytime soon.
A good 3D version would be useful because it would allow us to derive a good vector version of the logo. ... with the amount of interest in the number of toys, schwag, etc, I'd suggest that we do create a definitive 3D version. The most obvious filler for the back would be the rest of the "W" letters.
Gregory Maxwell wrote:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Michael Snow wikipedia@verizon.net wrote:
We don't need a definitive 3D version, I don't anticipate changing the "official" logo from the two-dimensional one anytime soon.
A good 3D version would be useful because it would allow us to derive a good vector version of the logo. ... with the amount of interest in the number of toys, schwag, etc, I'd suggest that we do create a definitive 3D version. The most obvious filler for the back would be the rest of the "W" letters.
There's been talk about reconstructing the 3D version for a while, mostly because some of the characters are incorrectly mirrored. Apparently the original 3D version was lost. So it would be great if someone could fix that, make a back side, and transfer copyright of the resulting 3D model to the Foundation.
It's easier to defend the trademark if you have the copyright as well, which is why the Foundation obtained the copyright for the current logo.
-- Tim Starling
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
A good 3D version would be useful because it would allow us to derive a good vector version of the logo. ... with the amount of interest in the number of toys, schwag, etc, I'd suggest that we do create a definitive 3D version. The most obvious filler for the back would be the rest of the "W" letters.
Not that this is a reason not to do it, but we'll inevitably have people asking for variant logos (different rotations) when their project's script is represented on the "dark side" of the wikiball. (And if we're being cynical, we can imagine an argument over which view of the ball is best representative of our projects, or most relevant, or most aesthetically pleasing, or what have you.)
Austin
2008/7/22 Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com:
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Gregory Maxwell gmaxwell@gmail.com wrote:
A good 3D version would be useful because it would allow us to derive a good vector version of the logo. ... with the amount of interest in the number of toys, schwag, etc, I'd suggest that we do create a definitive 3D version. The most obvious filler for the back would be the rest of the "W" letters.
Not that this is a reason not to do it, but we'll inevitably have people asking for variant logos (different rotations) when their project's script is represented on the "dark side" of the wikiball. (And if we're being cynical, we can imagine an argument over which view of the ball is best representative of our projects, or most relevant, or most aesthetically pleasing, or what have you.)
We're going to end up with an animated GIF in the corner of every page, aren't we? ;)
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Austin Hair adhair@gmail.com wrote:
Not that this is a reason not to do it, but we'll inevitably have people asking for variant logos (different rotations) when their project's script is represented on the "dark side" of the wikiball.
That sounds like a neat reason *to* do it.
Not that this is a reason not to do it, but we'll inevitably have people asking for variant logos (different rotations) when their project's script is represented on the "dark side" of the wikiball. (And if we're being cynical, we can imagine an argument over which view of the ball is best representative of our projects, or most relevant, or most aesthetically pleasing, or what have you.)
My ideal is that the foundation should, perhaps again through a contest, create a 3D-logo for Wikipedia and all 2D-logos created from this logo are then derivatives and could be used for our projects.
How is the legal issue for a 3D-logo?
Ting
Thanks for your input so far. I look forward to more thoughts. In other words, keep it coming.
Our discussions have roughly the same as this one, although the smaller gift balls was news for me, at least. Good to know.
Anyway, there are some more angles to consider:
* previous attempts at 3D logo, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_logos#3D_Versions
* these are the alphabets present on the logo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_logos#Alphabets_represented...
* errors on the logo, see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Errors_in_the_Wikipedia_logo
* the creator of the current logo is User:Nohat, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nohat/archive_2005-02-22#Logo for a longer discussion about the logo in Nohat's talk archive.
Best wishes,
Lennart
Below is a good question, as well:
How is the legal issue for a 3D-logo?
Ting
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Hi all - I'm also looking closely at this issue. It's becoming necessary to A) fix the Hindi character on the left-hand side of the puzzle globe, and B) as Lennart is pointing out it's advantageous (and somewhat logical) to need a fully 3D version of the globe for all sorts of needs.
I'm working with a colleague who is going to create a fully 3D version of the globe (as stage one) in blender. I'd like to have a modeled version for the simple reason that we obviously want to build a globe for public display, and to have one here in the WMF offices.
Ideally with that version in blender we should be able to create completely accurate 2D versions for print/design work that will always be more consistent, vectorized, and easy to update/manipulate if necessary.
I'd be interested in hearing more about thoughts on further scripts. It seems kind of obvious that we would continue the theme of 'w's in other languages on each of the pieces.
Jay Walsh Head of Communications WikimediaFoundation.org +1 (415) 839 6885 x 609
Michael Snow wrote:
Guillaume Paumier wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Lennart Guldbrandsson wikihannibal@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for cross-posting this, but as Cbrown pointed out: not everybody reads the logo page on Meta.
Anyway:
Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida, the Swedish chapter, are going to make a 3D version of the Wikipedia logo, a meter in diameter. But this means that we need to know what is on the puzzle pieces on the back of the globe. Which symbols are on the back?
It seems that we should probably have some official answer to this - or we will have to improvise ourselves.
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
I would guess that the desire for an "official" answer has more to do with simply going ahead. Since the project names and logos are in a sense owned by the Wikimedia Foundation as trademarks, it would be nice to have derivatives of them properly cleared. Please ask Sue or Mike Godwin, but I don't expect it should be a big concern to have chapters doing something like this.
As for what actually goes there, since the original concept came out of the community, it makes sense to me for the community to be the one to extend it. Whether that's more language characters, project logos, or something else is up to them, and may depend on what it's for. I can see that sponsor logos could fit in the context of an event with those sponsors, but it wouldn't be appropriate elsewhere. So anyone can come up with an idea that fits their needs. We don't need a definitive 3D version, I don't anticipate changing the "official" logo from the two-dimensional one anytime soon.
--Michael Snow
foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
I love this topic. A vectorized 3D ball would be fantastic.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jay Walsh jwalsh@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi all - I'm also looking closely at this issue. It's becoming necessary to A) fix the Hindi character on the left-hand side of the puzzle globe, and B) as Lennart is pointing out it's advantageous (and somewhat logical) to need a fully 3D version of the globe for all sorts of needs.
+1 for fixing the character (and perhaps clarifying any where the current rendering isn't clear) to update the current logo. I would also like to see characters on the currently blank pieces on the bottom.
I'm working with a colleague who is going to create a fully 3D version of the globe (as stage one) in blender. I'd like to have a modeled version for the simple reason that we obviously want to build a globe for public display, and to have one here in the WMF offices.
This would also be great. Note that a question harder than "what goes on the back?" is "what do the top and bottom of the sphere look like?", which is a question to work out with a talented spherical-puzzle designer. (for the top, it would be nice to have an estimate of the # of unfinished pieces, or a tentative design, but since the original point was to indicate the unfinished nature of the projects, a true 3D model would also be unfinished)
I'd be interested in hearing more about thoughts on further scripts. It seems kind of obvious that we would continue the theme of 'w's in other languages on each of the pieces.
I support the idea of having good representative scripts, not just "the most widely spoken".
SJ
2008/7/23 Samuel Klein meta.sj@gmail.com:
This would also be great. Note that a question harder than "what goes on the back?" is "what do the top and bottom of the sphere look like?", which is a question to work out with a talented spherical-puzzle designer. (for the top, it would be nice to have an estimate of the # of unfinished pieces, or a tentative design, but since the original point was to indicate the unfinished nature of the projects, a true 3D model would also be unfinished)
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikipedia-logo.png
Um, let's see. There's a completed central belt of four tiles by three rows - this is presumably mirrored on the back, so twelve.
On the lower part, I make one blank row of four, mirrored on the other side, total eight. There is a row below this we can only just see, which is more obvious on the top side - again, eight, somewhat distorted. (Remember, the globe is tilted towards us, so we don't see the south pole clearly)
At the very bottom, we could just have one (circular) tile with eight segments on the rim. Alternately, two D-shaped pieces (half-octagons), or four very small ones.
The top is easier because it's unfinished, so we can just shade the blank bits a neutral grey on our sphere (or leave them out, or make them translucent). I make it maybe two blanks - though a row of four might be better - to continue the line with Japanese on it, and nothing above.
Total, leaving aside the caps, thirty or so. Forty if we fill in the missing tiles. Can we rustle up thirty more visually different characters? I'm sure we can... anyone have a handy list of what writing systems we've used so far?
For the cap, well, a single odd piece would be nice. Something based on the WMF logo, perhaps, or a real oddball like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ICS_Whiskey.svg (though "V" might be an even more appropriate one, given the standard meaning - "I require assistance"...)
Total, leaving aside the caps, thirty or so. Forty if we fill in the missing tiles. Can we rustle up thirty more visually different characters? I'm sure we can... anyone have a handy list of what writing systems we've used so far?
Here is a list of writing systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems
And we can surely ignore writing systems that would never make to our projects (egypt hierographs and other dead languages), so in total, it is not so much
Ting
Hoi, It is a nice list but incomplete, http://unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html is the list of recognised writing systems. Yes, the wikipedia list excludes scripts that are likely to end up with Wikipedias SignWriting is one. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de wrote:
Total, leaving aside the caps, thirty or so. Forty if we fill in the missing tiles. Can we rustle up thirty more visually different characters? I'm sure we can... anyone have a handy list of what writing systems we've used so far?
Here is a list of writing systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems
And we can surely ignore writing systems that would never make to our projects (egypt hierographs and other dead languages), so in total, it is not so much
Ting
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2008/7/24 Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de:
Total, leaving aside the caps, thirty or so. Forty if we fill in the missing tiles. Can we rustle up thirty more visually different characters? I'm sure we can... anyone have a handy list of what writing systems we've used so far?
Here is a list of writing systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems
And we can surely ignore writing systems that would never make to our projects (egypt hierographs and other dead languages), so in total, it is not so much
Thanks to Guillom (who found it when I couldn't), a list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos_and_slogans#Alphabets_represent...
Armenian - [blank] - [blank] - [blank] Khmer - [blank] - Japanese - Klingon Tibetan - Greek - Latin - Arabic Devangari - Chinese - Cyrillic - Hangul [unknown] - Kannada - Hebrew - Thai
So, thirty more to play with. I would like on principle for us to include a dead system or two - even if we don't work in them, it's a nice nod to include cuneiform or demotic Egyptian. I would have said 'Mayan', but that's far too complex for us! (Another dead system which we might want to consider: Ogham, since it has a very nice "ui-" character, Uilleann.)
I can see why we might not want too, though, so I won't argue this much - but I'd like to consider it...
We may also want to think about quietly substituting Klingon for something else, given we've closed tlh.wp!
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
2008/7/24 Ting Chen Wing.Philopp@gmx.de:
Total, leaving aside the caps, thirty or so. Forty if we fill in the missing tiles. Can we rustle up thirty more visually different characters? I'm sure we can... anyone have a handy list of what writing systems we've used so far?
Here is a list of writing systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems
And we can surely ignore writing systems that would never make to our projects (egypt hierographs and other dead languages), so in total, it is not so much
Thanks to Guillom (who found it when I couldn't), a list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logos_and_slogans#Alphabets_represent...
Armenian - [blank] - [blank] - [blank] Khmer - [blank] - Japanese - Klingon Tibetan - Greek - Latin - Arabic Devangari - Chinese - Cyrillic - Hangul [unknown] - Kannada - Hebrew - Thai
So, thirty more to play with. I would like on principle for us to include a dead system or two - even if we don't work in them, it's a nice nod to include cuneiform or demotic Egyptian. I would have said 'Mayan', but that's far too complex for us! (Another dead system which we might want to consider: Ogham, since it has a very nice "ui-" character, Uilleann.)
I can see why we might not want too, though, so I won't argue this much - but I'd like to consider it...
We may also want to think about quietly substituting Klingon for something else, given we've closed tlh.wp!
It would be great to see a dead language in the mix. As an example of how it ties into Wikipedia, an extension has been created in order to render hieroglyphs, and it is in use on Wikipedia articles about related topics, so these languages are not excluded from the mission of Wikipedia entirely. They would be a better choice than Klingon!
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiHiero
I had always assumed the missing pieces represented lost or dead languages, and the symbolism was that we didnt want to loose any more knowledge/languages/etc. I'm off to find and read the backstory, if there is one.
Perhaps dead languages can be used in the 3D model for the pieces that are missing in the current logo - they would not be coveted spots anyway if they were missing from the default logo.
-- John Vandenberg
2008/7/24 John Vandenberg jayvdb@gmail.com:
Perhaps dead languages can be used in the 3D model for the pieces that are missing in the current logo - they would not be coveted spots anyway if they were missing from the default logo.
This is a rather elegant solution. I'd try to avoid complex pictograms, though - alphabetic characters seem to be preferable, simply because they scale better when we're dealing with a small image - hence demotic rather than hieroglyphic Egyptian.
If we're happy with pictograms, though, one of the Phaistos symbols would be nice :-)
2008/7/24 Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com:
This is a rather elegant solution. I'd try to avoid complex pictograms, though - alphabetic characters seem to be preferable, simply because they scale better when we're dealing with a small image
- hence demotic rather than hieroglyphic Egyptian.
Hieroglyphic Egyptian is alphabetic.
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
So, thirty more to play with. I would like on principle for us to include a dead system or two - even if we don't work in them, it's a nice nod to include cuneiform or demotic Egyptian. I would have said 'Mayan', but that's far too complex for us! (Another dead system which we might want to consider: Ogham, since it has a very nice "ui-" character, Uilleann.)
I think it would be excellent to include some scripts that are no longer in use. The logo combines the ideas that knowledge is diverse, by use of different writing systems, and that accumulating knowledge is an ongoing process, through use of the unfinished puzzle. I feel that historically important scripts that are no longer in use fit neatly into both of these concepts. To get self-important for a minute, the logo's also about showing Wikipedia's place as perhaps the latest evolution in the long tradition of accumulating and relaying knowledge, and including, say, something cuneiform would speak volumes in this direction.
Priority probably should be given to incorporating scripts that represent as many of the extant language editions of Wikipedia as possible. This task is simplified to a great degree by the fact that many scripts cover multiple languages: the Latin alphabet, most obviously, but also the Cyrillic, Arabic, Devanagari and Georgian alphabets and Chinese-derived scripts. Throw in Greek, Ge'ez, Khmer, Armenian and Sinhala and you've pretty much covered all the Wikipedias. Add important variants of these and you've still only covered the front of the globe. There'll be heaps of room for important historical languages.
Hoi, Let us please first include for the scripts that are still in use. When there is room left, we can fill the remainder with scripts that are no longer actively used. Wikipedia is first and foremost for the living people and their living languages. Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Stephen Bain stephen.bain@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
So, thirty more to play with. I would like on principle for us to include a dead system or two - even if we don't work in them, it's a nice nod to include cuneiform or demotic Egyptian. I would have said 'Mayan', but that's far too complex for us! (Another dead system which we might want to consider: Ogham, since it has a very nice "ui-" character, Uilleann.)
I think it would be excellent to include some scripts that are no longer in use. The logo combines the ideas that knowledge is diverse, by use of different writing systems, and that accumulating knowledge is an ongoing process, through use of the unfinished puzzle. I feel that historically important scripts that are no longer in use fit neatly into both of these concepts. To get self-important for a minute, the logo's also about showing Wikipedia's place as perhaps the latest evolution in the long tradition of accumulating and relaying knowledge, and including, say, something cuneiform would speak volumes in this direction.
Priority probably should be given to incorporating scripts that represent as many of the extant language editions of Wikipedia as possible. This task is simplified to a great degree by the fact that many scripts cover multiple languages: the Latin alphabet, most obviously, but also the Cyrillic, Arabic, Devanagari and Georgian alphabets and Chinese-derived scripts. Throw in Greek, Ge'ez, Khmer, Armenian and Sinhala and you've pretty much covered all the Wikipedias. Add important variants of these and you've still only covered the front of the globe. There'll be heaps of room for important historical languages.
-- Stephen Bain stephen.bain@gmail.com
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(for the top, it would be nice to have an estimate of the # of unfinished pieces, or a tentative design, but since the original point was to indicate the unfinished nature of the projects, a true 3D model would also be unfinished)
Yes, I agree with this. the top should remain unfinished.
Ting
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want me to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks, GerardM
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Jay Walsh jwalsh@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi all - I'm also looking closely at this issue. It's becoming necessary to A) fix the Hindi character on the left-hand side of the puzzle globe, and B) as Lennart is pointing out it's advantageous (and somewhat logical) to need a fully 3D version of the globe for all sorts of needs.
I'm working with a colleague who is going to create a fully 3D version of the globe (as stage one) in blender. I'd like to have a modeled version for the simple reason that we obviously want to build a globe for public display, and to have one here in the WMF offices.
Ideally with that version in blender we should be able to create completely accurate 2D versions for print/design work that will always be more consistent, vectorized, and easy to update/manipulate if necessary.
I'd be interested in hearing more about thoughts on further scripts. It seems kind of obvious that we would continue the theme of 'w's in other languages on each of the pieces.
Jay Walsh Head of Communications WikimediaFoundation.org +1 (415) 839 6885 x 609
Michael Snow wrote:
Guillaume Paumier wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Lennart Guldbrandsson wikihannibal@gmail.com wrote:
Sorry for cross-posting this, but as Cbrown pointed out: not everybody
reads
the logo page on Meta.
Anyway:
Wikimedia Sverige http://se.wikimedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida, the
Swedish
chapter, are going to make a 3D version of the Wikipedia logo, a meter
in
diameter. But this means that we need to know what is on the puzzle
pieces
on the back of the globe. Which symbols are on the back?
It seems that we should probably have some official answer to this - or
we
will have to improvise ourselves.
My guess is that there will be no « official » answer to your question, simply because there is nothing on the back. Either « be bold » or look at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikimania_2007_Wikiball
I would guess that the desire for an "official" answer has more to do with simply going ahead. Since the project names and logos are in a sense owned by the Wikimedia Foundation as trademarks, it would be nice to have derivatives of them properly cleared. Please ask Sue or Mike Godwin, but I don't expect it should be a big concern to have chapters doing something like this.
As for what actually goes there, since the original concept came out of the community, it makes sense to me for the community to be the one to extend it. Whether that's more language characters, project logos, or something else is up to them, and may depend on what it's for. I can see that sponsor logos could fit in the context of an event with those sponsors, but it wouldn't be appropriate elsewhere. So anyone can come up with an idea that fits their needs. We don't need a definitive 3D version, I don't anticipate changing the "official" logo from the two-dimensional one anytime soon.
--Michael Snow
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2008/7/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want me to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks,
I am wondering why "thank you" specifically... I mean, I can see reasons, but we could use a lot of stuff with equal justification. Is there anything vaguely contextually appropriate that visually resembles a "W" to some degree or another?
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
2008/7/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want me to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks,
I am wondering why "thank you" specifically... I mean, I can see reasons, but we could use a lot of stuff with equal justification. Is there anything vaguely contextually appropriate that visually resembles a "W" to some degree or another?
Including sign language, irrespective of whether it can be justified based on population, gels with what we all about. There are only limited spots, it cant hope to be representative, so the makeup of the cube needs to be indicative.
"Thank you" doesnt seem a natural choose, but seeing what it looks like might help there.
We? As in, "we are one" .. ?
Everyone?
Together?
Knowledge?
-- John
John Vandenberg wrote:
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
2008/7/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want me to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks,
I am wondering why "thank you" specifically... I mean, I can see reasons, but we could use a lot of stuff with equal justification. Is there anything vaguely contextually appropriate that visually resembles a "W" to some degree or another?
Including sign language, irrespective of whether it can be justified based on population, gels with what we all about. There are only limited spots, it cant hope to be representative, so the makeup of the cube needs to be indicative.
"Thank you" doesnt seem a natural choose, but seeing what it looks like might help there.
We? As in, "we are one" .. ?
If a version of the logo is going to include SignWriting, I think using "we" is a very good idea. It both captures the collaborative aspect and, for us hearing types, suggests the initial syllable of "wiki". (I have no real opinion about what languages to incorporate into the logo, but I like those suggestions so far that would allow for some flexibility.)
--Michael Snow
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:03 PM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
I am wondering why "thank you" specifically... I mean, I can see reasons, but we could use a lot of stuff with equal justification. Is there anything vaguely contextually appropriate that visually resembles a "W" to some degree or another?
a W shape is only really appropriate to readers of the Latin alphabet, the rest of the world would see it as some random gesture. I would much rather see a sign glyph for "knowledge" or "freedom" or "collaboration" or (if such a glyph exists) "wiki" instead.
--Andrew Whitworth
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want me to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks, GerardM
er, are we talking about the same American Sign Language? I've learned it before and for words that there is no "sign" or that you don't know the "sign", you are instructed to spell it out using the ASL alphabet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language_alphabet
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want me to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks, GerardM
That's ridiculous, Gerard. Of course there's a "w" in sign language. You don't have to be able to hear to understand the concept of the letter "w". A "w" is a circle with three lines coming out of the top middle, forming a W.
Hoi, Obviously you can have a word in any sing language for the character "w". However, as sign languages are based on signs, there are no words in sign languages *using *the character w not do they use the sound that is expressed by the w.
When there is a "w" theme to the Wikipedia globe, you will have to do without anything that has relevance to the "w" character or sound in any way when you include SignWriting. You can artificially make a link be selecting "we" in for instance American Sign Language as suggested by Michael Snow. I take it that you all understand that there is as much relation with this "we" to the English "we" as there is to for instance the Japanese "we". Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want
me
to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks, GerardM
That's ridiculous, Gerard. Of course there's a "w" in sign language. You don't have to be able to hear to understand the concept of the letter "w". A "w" is a circle with three lines coming out of the top middle, forming a W.
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On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Obviously you can have a word in any sing language for the character "w". However, as sign languages are based on signs, there are no words in sign languages *using *the character w not do they use the sound that is expressed by the w.
Proper nouns are often spelled out in SignWriting. See http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs6/sw0517-Cat-In-The-Hat-ASL.pdf where the word "Sally" is translated into SignWriting (third page, fourth column, first row).
How is the word "Wikipedia" written in SignWriting? I figure it's either spelled out or there's a sign for "wiki". Probably the latter in some circles, and the former in others.
Hoi, I received from Adam Frost, the assistant of Valerie Sutton, an SVG image of the "world" sign. It does include the sign for w twice .... How is that for staying within the W theme and for appropriateness. He is so gracious to make it available under a CC-by license but will be really happy when it becomes part of the backside of the Wikipedia "world".. Thanks, GerardM
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ASL-world.svg
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, Obviously you can have a word in any sing language for the character "w". However, as sign languages are based on signs, there are no words in sign languages *using *the character w not do they use the sound that is expressed by the w.
When there is a "w" theme to the Wikipedia globe, you will have to do without anything that has relevance to the "w" character or sound in any way when you include SignWriting. You can artificially make a link be selecting "we" in for instance American Sign Language as suggested by Michael Snow. I take it that you all understand that there is as much relation with this "we" to the English "we" as there is to for instance the Japanese "we". Thanks, GerardM
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Anthony wikimail@inbox.org wrote:
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:
Hoi, In SignWriting you do not have a "w" .. no sounds you see :) Do you want
me
to get you a vector image of ASL thank you ? Thanks, GerardM
That's ridiculous, Gerard. Of course there's a "w" in sign language. You don't have to be able to hear to understand the concept of the letter "w". A "w" is a circle with three lines coming out of the top middle, forming a W.
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2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I received from Adam Frost, the assistant of Valerie Sutton, an SVG image of the "world" sign. It does include the sign for w twice .... How is that for staying within the W theme and for appropriateness. He is so gracious to make it available under a CC-by license but will be really happy when it becomes part of the backside of the Wikipedia "world"..
Hum. I like it - it almost looks like astronomical notation!
This is a more complex sign than I expected, though. Will it be too detailed? For the large globe this isn't a problem, but if we're planning to shrink it to ping-pong ball sized it might be incomprehensible...
Hoi, I have been told that the top part of the sign can be removed as this combination of signs is rare and is likely to be understood to be word. The top part indicates movement and position. So for a big image, it can be the complete sign and for a small ball the subset suffices. Thanks, Gerard
PS I also received the png image... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ASL-world.svg :)
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:31 AM, Andrew Gray shimgray@gmail.com wrote:
2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I received from Adam Frost, the assistant of Valerie Sutton, an SVG image
of
the "world" sign. It does include the sign for w twice .... How is that
for
staying within the W theme and for appropriateness. He is so gracious to make it available under a CC-by license but will be really happy when it becomes part of the backside of the Wikipedia "world"..
Hum. I like it - it almost looks like astronomical notation!
This is a more complex sign than I expected, though. Will it be too detailed? For the large globe this isn't a problem, but if we're planning to shrink it to ping-pong ball sized it might be incomprehensible...
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
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2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I have been told that the top part of the sign can be removed as this combination of signs is rare and is likely to be understood to be word. The top part indicates movement and position. So for a big image, it can be the complete sign and for a small ball the subset suffices.
The other question... I understand there's a degree of mutual intelligibility between various sign languages, usually at the simpler end of things, but varying heavily by language and various factors; and that signwriting can (at least in theory) represent pretty much any sign language. Is this an ASL-specific sign, or would it be understood by, say, an NZSL or BSL reader?
We probably want to make sure we don't accidentally put up the symbol for "lies" in another sign language ;-)
Hoi, Sign languages are discreet languages and SignWriting allows you to write them. There are MANY sign languageshttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90008and there is no way of knowing if this sign exist in any of the 120 othe sign languages and what it means if it exists.
As to likelyhood to sharing the same sign, American and Danish Sign Language have their base in the French Sign Language. British Sign Language on the other hand does not. I have heard that for really specialised terminology many signlanguages share the same sign.
NB the reason for choosing ASL is, that they have a request for a WIkipedia and they hope to show no sooner then October how to make this a reality. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I have been told that the top part of the sign can be removed as this combination of signs is rare and is likely to be understood to be word.
The
top part indicates movement and position. So for a big image, it can be
the
complete sign and for a small ball the subset suffices.
The other question... I understand there's a degree of mutual intelligibility between various sign languages, usually at the simpler end of things, but varying heavily by language and various factors; and that signwriting can (at least in theory) represent pretty much any sign language. Is this an ASL-specific sign, or would it be understood by, say, an NZSL or BSL reader?
We probably want to make sure we don't accidentally put up the symbol for "lies" in another sign language ;-)
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
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I will be very interested to see a completed 3D Wikipedia globe, and one thought strikes me - Wikipedia T shirts would be able to show front and back.
Brian McNeil
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: 25 July 2008 01:58 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] What is on the back of the logo?
Hoi, Sign languages are discreet languages and SignWriting allows you to write them. There are MANY sign languageshttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90008and there is no way of knowing if this sign exist in any of the 120 othe sign languages and what it means if it exists.
As to likelyhood to sharing the same sign, American and Danish Sign Language have their base in the French Sign Language. British Sign Language on the other hand does not. I have heard that for really specialised terminology many signlanguages share the same sign.
NB the reason for choosing ASL is, that they have a request for a WIkipedia and they hope to show no sooner then October how to make this a reality. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I have been told that the top part of the sign can be removed as this combination of signs is rare and is likely to be understood to be word.
The
top part indicates movement and position. So for a big image, it can be
the
complete sign and for a small ball the subset suffices.
The other question... I understand there's a degree of mutual intelligibility between various sign languages, usually at the simpler end of things, but varying heavily by language and various factors; and that signwriting can (at least in theory) represent pretty much any sign language. Is this an ASL-specific sign, or would it be understood by, say, an NZSL or BSL reader?
We probably want to make sure we don't accidentally put up the symbol for "lies" in another sign language ;-)
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
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Talk about the most awesome screensaver ever.
It just occurred to me that the Wikipedia logo looks like a deathstar under construction. Does this mean something? =()
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Brian McNeil brian.mcneil@wikinewsie.orgwrote:
I will be very interested to see a completed 3D Wikipedia globe, and one thought strikes me - Wikipedia T shirts would be able to show front and back.
Brian McNeil
-----Original Message----- From: foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen Sent: 25 July 2008 01:58 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] What is on the back of the logo?
Hoi, Sign languages are discreet languages and SignWriting allows you to write them. There are MANY sign languageshttp://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90008and there is no way of knowing if this sign exist in any of the 120 othe sign languages and what it means if it exists.
As to likelyhood to sharing the same sign, American and Danish Sign Language have their base in the French Sign Language. British Sign Language on the other hand does not. I have heard that for really specialised terminology many signlanguages share the same sign.
NB the reason for choosing ASL is, that they have a request for a WIkipedia and they hope to show no sooner then October how to make this a reality. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Andrew Gray andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk wrote:
2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I have been told that the top part of the sign can be removed as this combination of signs is rare and is likely to be understood to be word.
The
top part indicates movement and position. So for a big image, it can be
the
complete sign and for a small ball the subset suffices.
The other question... I understand there's a degree of mutual intelligibility between various sign languages, usually at the simpler end of things, but varying heavily by language and various factors; and that signwriting can (at least in theory) represent pretty much any sign language. Is this an ASL-specific sign, or would it be understood by, say, an NZSL or BSL reader?
We probably want to make sure we don't accidentally put up the symbol for "lies" in another sign language ;-)
--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
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On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 5:12 PM, mboverload mboverloadlister@gmail.com wrote:
It just occurred to me that the Wikipedia logo looks like a deathstar under construction. Does this mean something? =()
Yes, young Jedi. Join us and embrace the Dark Side of the Force.
2008/7/27 mboverload mboverloadlister@gmail.com:
It just occurred to me that the Wikipedia logo looks like a deathstar under construction. Does this mean something? =()
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:ThatsNoMoonThatsWikipedia.jpg
- d.
2008/7/27 mboverload mboverloadlister@gmail.com:
Talk about the most awesome screensaver ever.
It just occurred to me that the Wikipedia logo looks like a deathstar under construction. Does this mean something? =()
It's occured to others as well; see the logo of Wookiepedia: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page ;-)
2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I received from Adam Frost, the assistant of Valerie Sutton, an SVG image of the "world" sign. It does include the sign for w twice .... How is that for staying within the W theme and for appropriateness. He is so gracious to make it available under a CC-by license but will be really happy when it becomes part of the backside of the Wikipedia "world".. Thanks, GerardM
With the amount of use the logo receives having to credit a third party every time we use it would be a problem.
Hoi, That is not an issue... It can be used anyway, I selected a license but I now have confirmation from Valerie Sutton that no credits are needed.. They are not anyway, remember they are characters of a script. Thanks, GerardM
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:37 AM, geni geniice@gmail.com wrote:
2008/7/25 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen@gmail.com:
Hoi, I received from Adam Frost, the assistant of Valerie Sutton, an SVG image
of
the "world" sign. It does include the sign for w twice .... How is that
for
staying within the W theme and for appropriateness. He is so gracious to make it available under a CC-by license but will be really happy when it becomes part of the backside of the Wikipedia "world".. Thanks, GerardM
With the amount of use the logo receives having to credit a third party every time we use it would be a problem.
-- geni
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I pointed this thread out on a few talkpages, and have had two requests to pass on information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Quiddity#foundation-l:_What_is_on_the...)
User:Grey Knight asked that I pass on the link to a table of suggestions at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Errors_in_the_Wikipedia_logo#Proposed_re...
User:Metaeducation had done some experiments with a 3d blender model a few years ago, so I notified him personally last year when this on the mailing list, and again this week. There are some relevant details/ideas at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Metaeducation#Wikipedia_puzzle_ball and the thread at my talkpage.
Thanks. - Quiddity
It was mentioned in the posts there that user Hazard has made a YouTube video about this issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm2i5F8xfFE
Best wishes,
Lennart
2008/7/31 quiddity blanketfort@gmail.com
I pointed this thread out on a few talkpages, and have had two requests to pass on information ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Quiddity#foundation-l:_What_is_on_the... )
User:Grey Knight asked that I pass on the link to a table of suggestions at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Errors_in_the_Wikipedia_logo#Proposed_re...
User:Metaeducation had done some experiments with a 3d blender model a few years ago, so I notified him personally last year when this on the mailing list, and again this week. There are some relevant details/ideas at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Metaeducation#Wikipedia_puzzle_ball and the thread at my talkpage.
Thanks.
- Quiddity
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